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Debate: The Brain-Only mind

Posted under Psychology

In response to the 2003 Reith Lectures, community member Clearlight considered what it would mean for a 'brain-only' mind

11 Apr
2003

Jupiter Images A shadow of a skull on a circuit board

Post extract

In the question time for his second Rieth lecture Ramachandran is asked whether he considers consciousness to be a construct of the brain. Ramachandran eagerly assures his questioner that he does. Now this leaves us in a very peculiar situation. Just about every, invariably metaphorical, explanation, or elucidation, that Ramachandran resorts to in order to pursue his vision of how this ‘construct of the brain’ is connected, or correlated, to the brain involves masses of invocation of the kind of intentional activity that really only belongs to the world of consciousness. This means that Ramachandran is claiming to explain consciousness by explaining the structure and activity of the brain it terms of consciousness!

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Brain Only Minds

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Construct or Consciousness

The Ramifications of Ramachandran’s
Brain-Only Mind

“If the substance of those sensory objects were other than consciousness
They could not both be a single entity.
A non-manifesting immaterial awareness
Does not create material substance.
Therefore, a relationship where the latter arises from the former, could not exist.
With this view that sensory objects are other than consciousness,
It will become illogical for sensory objects to appear from consciousness
Because they would have no connection.”

Transcending Ego: Distinguishing Consciousness from Wisdom - A Treatise of the Third Karmapa

-Yogachara (Mind-Only) analysis of mind-matter connection

In the question time for his second Rieth lecture Ramachandran is asked whether he considers consciousness to be a construct of the brain. Ramachandran eagerly assures his questioner that he does. Now this leaves us in a very peculiar situation. Just about every, invariably metaphorical, explanation, or elucidation, that Ramachandran resorts to in order to pursue his vision of how this ‘construct of the brain’ is connected, or correlated, to the brain involves masses of invocation of the kind of intentional activity that really only belongs to the world of consciousness. This means that Ramachandran is claiming to explain consciousness by explaining the structure and activity of the brain it terms of consciousness!

In his elucidation of some bazaar behavioural phenomena based on a defective interaction between the right and left hemispheres we are treated to a, metaphorical of course, fairy story of how the right brain ‘thinks this’ but then ‘remembers that’ whilst the left one is off shopping or whatever. Now it seems to me that this is an extraordinary crude and ad-hoc, and completely inadmissible, way to be attempting to convince us that consciousness is nothing more than the banging around, in some complex manner of course, of bits of unconscious matter. If this is so then why are we not treated to any indication of how the actual quality of conscious awareness arises from an unconscious material base. The actual details, or accounts, of brain damaged people attacking mirrors in order to grasp the reflection of a pencil for example, are nothing more than a kind of intellectual freak show illustrating a correlation between damage to the, supposed, material base of ‘consciousness’ and crazy behaviour. It says and indicates nothing about ‘consciousness’ in itself. Or is it the case that there are two ideas about how the word consciousness is to be used. To my mind (or consciousness – whichever you prefer) the term consciousness has its primary conceptual location within the realm of first hand awareness of knowledge, meaning, feeling and other inner, directly experienced experience, so to speak.

If someone claims to be able to tell me something of fundamental import concerning that nature of consciousness, as Ramachandran does, I expect to hear something about what consciousness actually is or, failing that, might be. Ramachandran clearly fails to do this or even try to do it. So why is he making the claim in the first place. The answer would seem to lie with his conviction, articulated in passing in the first lecture and emphasised at greater length in the second, that the problem of ‘life’ no longer exists since the discovery of DNA. It seems that he really believes that achieving a great enough mass of correlations between brain activity/configurations and outward behaviour (and perhaps inner thought etc.) will render the question as to what consciousness is superfluous.

This view requires the belief, usually already assumed by the purveyors of the brain-only theory of consciousness, that consciousness is an illusion. To see why this view is totally confused and unacceptable we can consider what Ramachandran says about his stance of ‘neutral monism’. Apparently ‘neutral monism’ is the view that there are not two kinds of stuff, presumably mind and matter, but only one kind. What he does not explicitly say is that the one kind of stuff that he believes is ontological effective, i.e. the real stuff, is matter. However, as in the previous lectures the issue of what consciousness is is not pursued. It cannot be pursued for if it were the ludicrous implications of his position would become obvious. If there seems to be two kinds of stuff, consciousness and matter, and there is in reality only one, and that one is matter, then consciousness does not exist.

In order to cover up the problems with this ‘brain-only’ view philosophers usually grant the realm of consciousness a kind of provisional illusory status. However even such an illusory status is problematic. Actually consciousness should not even exist as an illusion. A mirage, for instance, is an illusion. But it is an illusion which has a, materially based, explanation. We know how the illusion functions and comes into being. This, however, is not the case with consciousness. If it were a material illusion it has no possibility of being demonstrated as being such. Ramachandran, and materialist thinkers like him are quite aware of the impossibility so they simply have to bully their audience into accepting without any evidence the illusion that consciousness is an illusion.

Lets us look at an example of how Ramachandran’s employs judicious use of language to advance a discredited philosophical paradigm within a new formulation, actually saying exactly the same thing, but appearing to say something far more deep, weighty and abstruse. Any aspiring philosophers who wish to learn techniques of defending an argument by advancing it on context shifting grounds of justification should read on with alacrity. At the very outset of his lecture Ramchandran directs our attention to the ‘transformation’ which is ‘nothing short of a miracle’ of ‘two tiny upside down distorted images inside of your eyeballs’ into the ‘vivid 3-D world out there’.

He then asks, in a very authoritative and assured manner which implies that the goal and purpose of his lecture is to answer this very question: ‘How does this come about?. The audience settles down, with great expectancy, to hear the answer, we have been told that what we are about to hear will have ‘stunning’ implications. However, apart from the next few sentences in which he throws a completely fallacious, confused and disreputable sophistic smokescreen in to the faces of his expectant listeners, nothing in his lecture contributes to the kind of understanding we have been led to expect both by the publicists for the lectures and Ramachandran himself.

So how does the ‘miraculous transformation’ came about? Well, according to Ramachandran, the reason for this miracle is that the transformation is caused by a, wait for it, ‘transform’. I couldn’t believe that he was going to get away with this but he did. No-one pointed out to him that he has said absolutely nothing. Suppose you asked a theologian ‘how did Jesus manage the miracle of transforming water into wine?’ and he replied ‘Well, isn’t it obvious, it was a transform!’ Would you accept this throwing back at you of the word ‘transform’ as an explanation or elucidation. Or wouldn’t you fall about laughing at the incredible cheek that someone had tried to pull such a cheap philosophical trick and expected you to fall for it. And yet this is precisely the level of the philosophical content of what we are offered in the prestigious Rieth lectures and no-one is questioning it!

Why? Well perhaps I maybe asked to deliver next years lectures on the important topic of what Wittgenstein called ‘notations’. The concept of a ‘notation’ is that of a manner of speaking which says nothing but makes every one feel comfortable because it remains within the confines of expectations and habitual ways of viewing reality. Another image that Wittgenstein employed for such linguistic situations was that of someone employing words as if they were cogs which rotated whilst nothing rotated with them. This method of ‘notational exposition’, which depends upon the listener’s habitual, consensual and tacit agreement to a formulaic manner of exposition is routine within the wild borders of brain-consciousness scientific discourse. With this weapon you can go far, as Ramachandran is living proof, in certain areas of academia. Welcome to the ramifications of the brain-only mind.

Lets look at Ramachandran’s claims a little more deeply. He first refers to what is generally the logical absurdity of the homunculus picture of brain functioning. This picture, as he says, involves an infinite regression of little men all inside the brain all viewing an inner screen, an obviously ludicrous manner of trying to come to terms with the way in which a pure material configuration becomes the inner awareness of seeing. It is this transformation into ‘inner awareness’ that is the crucial issue for the elucidation of how the brain gives rise to consciousness. If this had not been the case the problem of the inner homunculus would not have proved to be so intractable.

Ramachandran’s approach to the homunculus problem is to murder it and hope that no one notices! Well perhaps we should say he attempts to render it redundant by employing another word picture, a picture in which all homunculi are banished, or should we say hidden. We have to ‘get rid of the idea of images in the brain and think in terms of ‘transforms or symbolic representations’. Ramachandran tells us that “just as little squiggles of ink, print or writing, or dashes or dots of morse code can symbolise or represent something’ so, too, patterns of firing within the neurons of the brain represent objects and events in the external world even though they don’t resemble them. Neurobiologists are to be considers as ‘cryptologists’ cracking the codes of brain representation.

This all sounds very nice but it is fallacious, not to say fraudulent. Why? Because it in no way does this sleight of mind solve the ‘problem of perception’, or contribute to understanding the ‘problem of self’, both of which are claims made by Ramachandran. The neurobilogist Antonio Damasio, in his book The Feeling of What Happens says that “The general problem of representing the object is not especially enigmatic”. Like Ramachandran, Damasio believes that “the object is exhibited in the form of neural patterns in the sensory cortices appropriate to map its characteristics”. The crucial piece of fraudulent conceptual mystification takes place when both these thinkers feel confident and justified in identifying such purely mechanical mappings with “the relationship play of consciousness”.

Actually all that Ramanchandran has done is to replace an internal screen which needs a homunculus to view it with an internal symbolic picture which is equally in need of an internal viewer. This isomorphism between the two pictures is masked by the conceptually overloaded use of the term ‘representation’. The term ‘representation’ has a use in two, connected, ‘conceptual landscapes’. The first, and primary, locus of use is in the field of consciousness. A ‘representation’ is a representation to consciousness. It needs a conscious entity in order to interpret the symbolic representation. ‘Squiggles of ink’ represent nothing unless they are intended too. Writing is the conscious, intentional use of ‘squiggles of ink’ to represent something other than ‘squiggles of ink’. Morse code is an intentional ‘transform’ of ‘squiggles of ink’ into patterns of long and short electronic pulses.

Such symbolic patterns would never have had any meaning without the intentional activity of consciousness to give them meaning. As a further development of this idea of conscious representation, by metaphoric extension, it has become accepted within a certain type of academic discourse to consider that two patterns can represent each other if they can be mapped on to each other. However to called the mapping itself, without reference to the consciousness that performs the mapping, is actually just a short hand (or ‘notation’) way of looking at things. In reality without a conscious observer there is nothing and everything. Without the link of meaning awareness anything can map into anything! There no-one to care!

However, because these two usages of the term ‘representation’ are current, the two meanings can be conflated in a manner which gives the illusion that a mechanical representation accounts for consciousness. It is quite a neat trick to explain the, supposed, illusion of consciousness by using a linguistic illusion. I wonder whether Ramachandran got the idea from any of the illusions displayed on the Radio 4 web site!

The idea of ‘transformation’ which Ramachandran is appealing to has its home in the field of mathematical mappings. All such transforms, however, are between ‘externalised structures’. There has never been an instance of any such ‘transform’ becoming magically aware of itself because it was moved into a new medium. And, here is the crucial point, ‘matter’ is, and always has been within the western scientifically based philosophical tradition, considered to be unconscious or, to be more precise, non-conscious. That is to say within the current conceptual landscape of this terminology ‘matter’ has no qualities in common with ‘consciousness’.

It follows, quite clearly, that if the aspect of conscious awareness, which is the hallmark of consciousness, does not inhere in the stuff of matter, to be activated, so to speak, by the structure being represented, then, consciousness can only be a matter, excuse the play on words, of the structure itself. The brain can have nothing extra to add in the way of conscious awareness because the brain is matter and matter is non-conscious, has no capacity for consciousness. It therefore follows that the structures must be consciously aware of themselves wherever they exhibit themselves. In other words any structure we can be consciously aware of, must be consciously aware of itself before it gets inside our brain.

Do you think this is nonsense? If you do then you are correct. But it is a logical consequence of the brain-only position. This was clearly understood by brain-only thinkers who actually propose the ridiculous idea that if we wrote down every thought a person had in symbolic form it would, in reality, be his mind! If you wish to be a little more subtle and claim that it is a function of the electromagnetic interaction of the brain neurons which are the cause of conscious awareness then you are actually claiming nothing extra. At the quantum level matter is nothing more that electromagnetic interaction. In fact at this level there are deeper problems because at this level matter as we commonly know it appears to dissolve and, although quantum physicist do not like to admit it, at the quantum level there, from one cogent point of view, is nothing but “the relationship play of consciousness”.

Any serious philosophically authentic, to use a Sartrian term, analysis of the current problems within the fields of the investigation mind and matter lead ineluctably to the Yogachara Madhyamika view that it is ‘illogical for sensory objects to appear from consciousness because they would have no connection’. According to Yogachara philosophy if we define the realms of consciousness and matter, as Descartes did, to have no common nature then there cannot be any connection. Concepts with no conceptual overlap, which is to say aspects of reality indicated by the concepts are not considered to have a common nature, cannot interact with, or effect each, other in any way. For Buddhist philosophy this is a given base for any sensible discourse about reality. As the sixth century Buddhist philosopher Chandrakirti says in his magnificent Introduction to the Middle Way:

“If something can arise from something other than itself,
Well then, deep darkness can arise from tongues of flame,
And anything could issue forth from anything.”

The context of this discussion is causality but the same principle applies to relationship. Without a common nature, a relationship, as pointed out by the third Karmapa above, cannot exist.

If thinkers such as Ramchandran were to simply say that they were in the business of showing how structures of the external world are, in some way, mechanically mapped into the neuronal firing activity of the brain we could have no argument with them. This is the picture of their field they will often appeal to when questioned deeply about the philosophical basis of claims regarding their ability to elucidate the phenomenon of consciousness. When people are not monitoring them too closely, however, they will immediately revert to the kind of language which implies they are on the road to solving the problem of an explanation of consciousness. When they are allowed to spread their wings in fanciful philosophical flight their claims tend to soar accordingly.

Ramachandran quite openly says that he thinks that the work he is engaged in will explain the evolutionary necessity for consciousness. His view, however, is internally inconsistent, depending on what Wittgenstein would have called a ‘metaphysical’ mistaken application of language, using the term ‘consciousness’ in separate, although connected, conceptual landscapes as if they were identical. If his basic brain-only position is correct then consciousness cannot be an evolutionary necessity. Everything could proceed, as it does now, without the luxury of conscious awareness. All there would be is bits of brain matter banging around mirroring other bits of matter banging around externally.

If you believe this then you deny your own consciousness. What could you possibly mean when you use the term ‘consciousness’. Do you know? Are you conscious of what you mean by ‘consciousness’? Ramachandran does not seem to know. He has had two lectures on the subject and he has still not really told us. Perhaps he really believes he has only got a brain-only’ mind!

Re: Brain Only Minds

Archive Comments

Imagine we are in a room of computer scientists. We ask them how does this forum work.

One tells us that a computer is made up of logic gates, cut into a slice of silicon. From the basic AND, OR and NOT gates you can construct more complex logic.

Another tells us of the fetch-execute cycle within a micro-processor. Instructions are retrieved from memory, decoded by the processor and then executed to alter other areas of the computers memory.

A third tells us that the messages are stored within a database, and that each record in the table has several fields or columns: name, email, subject and text.

Are all of these so called scientists talking rubbish because not one of them has explained exactly what happens when you click the reply button.

The lectures are describing specific, measurable activities within the brain. There has been no attempt to explain every aspect of consciousness.

Re: Brain Only Minds

Archive Comments

Bearing in mind the lecturer's Indian background, when you wrote "in his elucidation of some bazaar [sic] behavioural phenomena", were you thinking of shoppers' actions in such oriental emporia?

Re: Brain Only Minds

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To add to my reply posted as Clear-Light.

The whole point about the brain-only position is that it claims as an ultimate truth that conscious does not really exist but is an illusion. However the notion of matter - which the brain-only philosophers so lovingly think is real - is totally beyong the explication of physics. All the eviudence is that consciousness is primary in the world as the Yogachara (Buddhist) philosophers maintain. Any such idea however is riduculed by brain-only philosophersd even though it is actually logically watertight. They just dont like it. Its the same in quantum physics which clearly indicates that mind creates matter. Brain-only physicists dont like this so they are deserate to find another theory even though there is none in sight!

Re: Brain Only Minds

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Consciousness cannot be an emergent property of matter because philosophers like dennett define matter as being the opposite and antithetical to the qualities of matter. If consciousness emerges than matter must have some connection with the quailty of consciousness. Matter must be partially, to some degree mind. There is no other situation where a complete opposite arises from its opposite. Furthermore the arguments advanced are contradictory. If we allow them than anyone can argue for anything. Its would all be a matter of opinion!

Re: Brain Only Minds

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WHen I said in my Clear_light post:

matter antithetical to matter

that should be

matter opposite and antithetical to mind

of course!

Re: Brain Only Minds

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Just suppose that I could quickly freeze a thinking brain (to prevent decomposition), take it apart, molecule by molecule, and reassemble it elsewhere. I might have to do some biochemical jumpstarting trick, but I suspect that it would be just as conscious as before (subject to my accuracy!). If all I've transferred is matter (and its structure), I'm intrigued to hear from Clearlight how the ghost has got back into the machine.

Re: Brain Only Minds

Archive Comments

There are two aspects to this freezing brain scenario:

OK You may be right, although I think there are logical reasons why you cannot be. THose are the reasons outlined by Yogachara philosophers. It needs more time to discuss such issues. However the crucial point is at least I entertain the fact that you may be right and do not ridicule you. As the evidence stands there is no conclusive empirical eveidence to say that matter is primary. Brain-only philosophers simply assume that the materialist position has been empirically validated by science when stuff like quentum physics indicates that it is not.

Also most of my posts have been concerning the astonishingy weak argument, the continuous logical contradiction and so on. None onf this has been addressed.

Finally - I think that if you consult Penrose you will find that there may be a material reason wht what you propose cannot be done.

It certainly remains the case that frezing brains and ressurectin g is a matter of pure belief and nothing. As is the idea that we know what matter IS!.

Re: Brain Only Minds

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Contrary to Clearlight's submission, the resurrection of minds is an everyday experience (if not, fortunately, everyday for each of us!) All we need to do to stop a brain in its tracks is to administer a substance which interferes with inter-neurone communication (or other neuronal function) in sufficient quanitity. If these substances can then be removed (either passively or by active reversal of their effects) then consciousness returns. We call these substances anaesthetics.

Re: Brain Only Minds

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anaethestics do not knock out consciousness completely it only knocks out gross surface consciousness. In Yogachara philosophy there are many levels - clear light of sleep - clear light of death even. We dont know about most of these levels. Anyway an anaethetsied brain is not dead. If we want to resuurect a dead brain we would need to reconstract the quantum field of the brain in order to get it right!

Re: Brain Only Minds

Archive Comments

Re the anaesthaesia debate...

I suspect that we won't resolve this because we are using different vocabularies, let alone philosophies.

What is the "clear light of death"? Is this a state of consciousness/mind? I confess that I'm beginning to think that this is the sort of "truth" to which only the believers have access.

Re: Brain Only Minds

Archive Comments

It seems to me that anyone who does not hold the ?brain-only? (materialistic) interpretation of consciousness has some difficult questions to answer:

1. If that incredibly complex structure behind our eyes is not there to produce consciousness, what is it for?

2. How come various chemical and mechanical disruptions to the brain cause a variety of repeatable and measurable impacts on the functioning of consciousness ranging from the subtle to complete termination?

3. How come the lifespan of a consciousness appears to be co-incident with the lifetime of a brain?

When Sue Lawley asked Ramachandran if his materialism derived from his scientific studies, he replies to the effect 'no, not really, it's just common sense'. I was cheering to the rafters! I do not think he claims to explain consciousness materialistically (though Dennett, or at least his publisher, does). You can know enough to be confident there is a materialistic explanation without actually having that explanation. I stand in this position in relation to the functioning of my computer!

Re: Brain Only Minds

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The Reith lectures are meant to be delivered from the cutting edge of science NOT the cutting edge of everyday common sense. If science was about common sense then why do physicists still think that quantum physics, with its necessity for mind to collapse the wave function, is one of the most powerful theories around?

THe Buddhoist Yogachara philosohical position is quite clear that matter and mind are interdependent phenomena arising form a common base (quantum field?). The complex structure behind the eye is a physical manifestation of the structure of consciousness that lies behind. The whole appearence is driven by quantum resonance form the previous moment ie.e karma.

The Buddhist Madhyamaka philosophy is a cutting edge analysis of reality which clearly shows that the appearence of matter is an astonishingly persuasive but ultimately illusory appearance to mind. Our own great Emmanual Kant was quite aware of this.

Becuase matter and consciousness are interdependent there will always be correlations.

The life span of gross-consciousness which means the life span of the consciousness that most human beings identify with, including myself, is co-incident with the lifetime of the brain. Howver if you saw the rescent program on after death experiences you would know this is not quite as cut and dried as brain only theorists would like!

Re: Brain Only Minds

Archive Comments

Hi Clearlight!

I'm glad to see your posting here because they show up in "clear light" what is so nonsensical about new-age thinking.

Please explain exactly what "quantum resonance form (sic) the previous moment" means.

It appears to me that you ae randomly picking words that have quite specific and technical meanings out of science, assigning your own (novel) meanings to them, and then throwing them back at us!

When you say "matter and consciousness are interdependent", what does that mean? JohnHind made some excellent points that you have happily ignored!

JohnHind said:

"1. If that incredibly complex structure behind our eyes is not there to produce consciousness, what is it for?

"2. How come various chemical and mechanical disruptions to the brain cause a variety of repeatable and measurable impacts on the functioning of consciousness ranging from the subtle to complete termination?

"3. How come the lifespan of a consciousness appears to be co-incident with the lifetime of a brain?"

I refer particularly to point 2. We know that damage to the (phyical) brain causes damage to the (supposed and non-physical) mind/soul, but y*you* need to provide an explanation about how the mind/soul can influence the physical brain.

Kind regards

Nick Pullar
Convener, Skeptics in the Pub
http://www.skeptic.org.uk/pub

[Edited by: Fiona (Moderator) on 02-May-2003 16:23 The BBC and the Open University are not responsible for the content of external websites]

Re: Brain Only Minds

Archive Comments

Sorry - its my typing i meant quantum resonance FROM the previous moment. Basically every action affect or dirupts the quantum field and sends out interfernece patterns which can resonate or interfer with other quantum patterns.

Matter and consciousness are interdependent because they depend upon each other. They are a symmetrical manifestation from the deeper quantum field. Details are being currently worked on.

Yes I do need to work on a mechanism. But if you say this why dont you also say it about the brain only position which lacks not only a mechanism but also logical coherence.

I actually think that most action we perform are fairly robotic but through certain advanced meditation techniques we can access deeper levels of the quantum field.

Re: Brain Only Minds

Archive Comments

I haven't spotted anyone else using this objection to Clearlight's proposal that matter and consciousness are interdependent; if I've missed it, apologies.

I'd like to know whether matter existed prior to mind.

Did "mind" already exist before human brains (and even amoebas!) had evolved, or did the universe (including of course fossil records) suddenly spring into existence simultaneously with the first human brain? I assume that Clearlight would have us discount the third chronological variant (mind appeared after matter), but of course I stand to be corrected.

Re: Brain Only Minds

Archive Comments

I suggest you look at last year's lectures, clearlight. I'm not sure what Prince Charles and Jonathan Porritt are on the cutting edge of, but it certainly aint science!

I'm disinclined to accept arguments from authority whether Buddhist or Kant? Unless you interrogate the universe with observation and experiment your conclusions amount only to opinion. And the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum theory is only one of a number of available interpretations (all of them admittedly just as weird ? and provisional).

If 'the complex structure behind the eye is a physical manifestation of the structure of consciousness that lies behind' then surely we can hope to understand consciousness by studying the brain? As a stronger version of Allan Green's test, suppose you assemble a structure just as complex as a human brain using engineering techniques. Could that result in the production of a new consciousness? Would it necessarily do so? Surely the interdependence you suggest would have to work both ways?

Re: Brain Only Minds

Archive Comments

OK I did not hear last years lectures. If what you say is true then its a bit deceptive to bill them as being at the cutting edge of science. But then if you consult a web site called the edge you bfind that the brain-only philosophers happily tells us that they are the cutting edge thinker of all time - despite their tenuous grip on logic.

I do not suggest that you take anything on authority - but simply look at the arguments in the light of the epistemological situation of human embodiment. We do not know what matter is separate from you mediated experience through our minds. If you know of a way I can have an UNMEDIATED direct experience of matter which will completely divulge its innate and deinite attributes I would like to know it.

Yes the interdependence is two ways. If it was not then medicine coiuld have no effect. I am not quaestioning. WHat I think is nonsense is the consclusion that we are ONLY matter and that consciousness is illusory. The arguments for this are just ridiculous as I have tried to show by analysing what Ramachandran says logically.

If we could produce consciousness from matter then we would have to say that matter was in some way connected to the quality of consciousness. It would make no logical sense to say that matter was totally opposite. This is the crucial point. It is a matter of understanding how concepts work. For instance wouldn't it make more sense for brain only philosophers to say that everything was just electromagnetical fields. Why cant consciousness be the internal quality oif an electomagnetic field. Brain only philosophers think in terms of little solid bits and peices. Thus Dennett talks of 'mindless molecular machinary'.

Re: Brain Only Minds

Archive Comments

Oh dear! How hard you are on poor Prof Ramachandran! As I understand it, his position is that of a materialist scientist. Consequently he holds the theory that consciousness can ultimately be reduced to neuronal activity of some complexity. One of his evidence is that of "blindsight", which he explains as neuronal activity for unconscious sight not being coordinated with neuronal activity corresponding to conscious sight. He doesn't know how consciousness arises from neuronal activity (and to be fair neither does anybody else), although he's working on it. In this gap between his hypothesis and final explanation, there is a space for other theories like yours e.g. consciousness cannot arise from pure neuronal activity.

This dichotomy of positions resembles that for religion. No-one has proved from reductionist principles that God exists. That gap allows religious scientists to work quite happily. One side works to establish that final link that makes supernaturalism redundant. The other thinks this is a vain endeavour. As expected things can get personal and the level of mutual scoffing is high.

As Bertrand Russell (I think) said "No-one argues about the multiplication table!"

Re: Brain Only Minds

Archive Comments

Yes I am hard on Ramanchandran. If you think thats hard look at my piece 'Transforms of Matter' on the MSN group Quantum Buddhism. I am hard for good reason Ramachandran is part of an academic idealogy which has become dominant in western culture. It is what Wittgenstein called a notation a - way of seeing the world that is comfortable. His compatriots are 'thinkers' such as Dennett and Dawkins. The problem is that their view of the world is a complete logical nonsense - as I try to show.

It would be fine if they did treat their views as if they were provisional but they don't. They act as if their way of looking at things - materialist reductionaism - was a logically consistent and obvious fact.

My point which no-one seems to notice or want to take on board is that whether consciousness can be 'reduced to neuron' or whatever is not an empirical matter. It is conceptually confuse in the first place.

Add to that the fact that 'consciousness' turns up at the level of quantum theory - to the horror of quantum physicists who dont want it there - it becomes very obvious that the brain-onlyb point of view is desperately unconvincing to anyone who surveys all the terrain.

Despite this the brain-only view is condiered normal. It is a nonsesne!

To consider that aspects of consciousness may be a primary feature of the world is not supernatural it is actual
more logical than the brain-only view as an understanding of Buddhist Yogachara philosophy indicates. To know more see Matrix of Mind on Quantum Buddhism.

[Edited by: Fiona (Moderator) on 14-Apr-03 17:42]

Re: Brain Only Minds

Archive Comments

I probably have a far too eclectic, confused and muddled view of all this, but what the heck!

Dennet has just published freedom evolves that I think if I haven't misunderstood it argues that consciousness is an "emergent" property.

I am unclear about Dennett's basic stance on matter. William James Varieties of Religious Experience when discussing religion and neurology uses the phrase "medical materialism" and was just as rude!

Jung was also very interesting about this, tending to agree with taoist and buddhist traditions of approaching issues of consciousness.

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Friday, 11th April 2003
Friday, 11th April 2003

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