Community guest Jens wondered if we're getting our verbs muddled
Community guest Jens wondered if we're getting our verbs muddled
As I was learning the Queen's english as a boy in Canada, I learned that the verb must reflect the singular or plural nature of the subject, such as "The boy is going to school", not "The boy are going to school". This also applied to a singular subject which included more than one person or object, such as "The team is going to play tonight", not "The team are going to play tonight".
Now that I have this firmly embedded in my mind, I see that the British have changed this for some unknown reason. Now it is "The team are playing tonight", even though "team" is singular.
I realize that language is fluid and ever-changing with the times, but this example seems to violate a "law" of grammar. How did this change happen? Is it engraved in stone somewhere?
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I see this as a regional difference.
In the US, collections of individuals are almost always referred to as a single entity. A team is good, the board has made a decision, etc. It sounds odd, or wrong, to use the plural verb.
But in the UK, you often hear the plural used in these situations. The jury have delivered their verdict. The team have won their fifteenth game.
I find both systems are used in Canada.
As I was learning the Queen's english as a boy in Canada, I learned that the verb must reflect the singular or plural nature of the subject, such as "The boy is going to school", not "The boy are going to school". This also applied to a singular subject which included more than one person or object, such as "The team is going to play tonight", not "The team are going to play tonight".
Now that I have this firmly embedded in my mind, I see that the British have changed this for some unknown reason. Now it is "The team are playing tonight", even though "team" is singular.
I realize that language is fluid and ever-changing with the times, but this example seems to violate a "law" of grammar. How did this change happen? Is it engraved in stone somewhere?
Thanks.
It's a case of collective nouns and they carry particular meanings. Chelsea are the top of the league is referring the football team. Chelsea is an area of London.
This also applied to a singular subject
> which included more than one person or object, such
> as "The team is going to play tonight", not "The team
> are going to play tonight".
I think technically both are accepted as correct, it depends on whether the speaker is thinking of the team as a single unit or as a group of individuals.
I saw a sign once which said "there is no I in team" thats probably what it is. A team is more than one person so I think we use "are" because of this
The 'crew' example highlights one of the issues about whether to use a singular or plural verb - it depends to some extent on whether the focus is on the organisation acting as a single unit, or on a group of individuals, not all of whom are acting in the same way at the same time. It's also a question of changing usage. The rules of grammar are generalisations based on observation of current usage of the language. A living language is always in a state of change; expressions can move into a 'grey area' where some people use one form and others use another. If a minority usage, seen as breaking the existing rule, becomes a majority usage, and then the usage of most of the speakers of the language, this then becomes an acceptable form, and so the rule changes. For example, in earlier English, up to Elizabethan times,the second person singular form of the verb was e.g.' thou singest'; now it has changed to the accepted form 'you sing',with a version of the plural pronoun used in the singular as well, and it's possible to track the changes from written forms across the intervening time. That's one of the fascinations of watching language in use; we can not only compare today's English with past forms, but also see new changes taking place. So the more examples that people can collect and communicate, the better - it's one of the great values of a forum like this.
Another exception to the rule: "the crew are going ashore".
Possibly because the individuals tend to depart in several groups smaller than the whole.
An interview on BBC Radio 4 today, presented by Paul Hiney, discussed twins.
The interviewer was pulled up for using bad English. A caller rang the show to say that he shouldn’t refer to his guests as the ‘two twins’ instead he should refer to them as ‘twins’ and not say the ‘two twins’ meaning two sets of twins.
However, if you think about it, lets say for example, if one twin arrived half an hour later for the interview than the other twin, then the interviewer could pronounce to the listeners that the two twins are now sitting in front of him.
Comes from people being careless I guess.
I assume that's the case, but it didn't used to be like that. People used to say, "The committee is meeting today" because, according to the rules of grammar, that was the correct way. Now, for some reason, that rule is consistently broken, even by the BBC, and seems to have become acceptable. This isn't just a case of a single word whose meaning has changed with time, but a rule of grammar that has been discarded. I didn't think that could be done so easily.
Now it is "The team are playing
> tonight", even though "team" is singular.
I guess imagery plays a part, that is to say, most people associate the word 'team' in plural terms.
Dietmar
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