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Is it me (old age, drinking out of wet glasses, baldness), or is the BBC becoming illiterate?
The England captain: What happened to the captain of England or the English Captain?
I don't hear (simply an eg from the same news broadcast): An Israel Air strike - they say Israeli air strike.
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England Team
Is it me (old age, drinking out of wet glasses, baldness), or is the BBC becoming illiterate?
The England captain: What happened to the captain of England or the English Captain?
I don't hear (simply an eg from the same news broadcast): An Israel Air strike - they say Israeli air strike.
Re: England Team
David Beckham is England captain in the same way that Bill Gates is the Microsoft chairman.
David Beckham is not the 'captain' of the country or the people, regardless of celebrity culture and the hijacking of sport to nationalism, he is merely captain of a thing, or brand, called the England football team.
The England captain, in other words.
No illiteracy there, merely one of the political subtleties of the English language
Re: England Team
political subtleties
Ahh ... the political correctness subtleties.
Until very recently, it would have been the English captain - as is frequently used in ordinary speech and has been ever since I was a child.
The move (recent - within the last 5 years) to change to England captain is , I suspect, political correctness motivated.
The arguement that he is not the 'captain' of the country doesn't hold - England captain in fact suggesting he is in fact captain of England as opposed to being only the captain of the English Team.
The new use is so marked, and seems to be being used increasingly by the media, I begin to suspect a policy taken somewhere.
Re: England Team
The English captain would be wrong, though - he isn't captaining the English, he's captaining a team called England. And saying "the English captain" wouldn't tell you that he was captaining the team - it's plausible that the English captain was captaining another team.
Look at Sven: He is the Swedish manager, but he manages England. During last night's game, "the Swedish manager" wouldn't have made any distinction between the two of the coaches by the side of the pitch. Two Swedish managers, but only one England manager and only one Sweden manager.
Re: England Team
Look at Sven: He is the Swedish manager:
No, he is A Swedish manager - he is THE English Manager. (Or, England's Manager)
Hate to degenerate into grammar - but it's a purely descriptive I assure you - English is the adjective for England.
the Swedish manager" wouldn't have made any distinction between the two of the coaches by the side of the pitch - but it would -there is only one manager of Sweden.
Re: England Team
This is pedantry of the highest order.
The fact is that the usaage is very sensibly 'England'.
Take it up with the English speaking world, who prefer using one word instead of three. And probably not just them.
Re: England Team
"This is pedantry of the highest order"
Sorry about that - just happen to be a pedant - spent most of the last decade teaching English to learners of the language who are not "Native Speakers". (Before that taught English (and a few other things, like communication studies, in Secondary schools in England)
"is very sensibly " - whatever English is, it isn't sensible.
"Take it up with the English speaking world" - exactly what I have done.
"who prefer using one word instead of three" - England, English and England's are all of great pedigree, and frequently used by the English Speaking world - it is the media who seem to have a problem with it.
Re: England Team
'the media who have a problem with it'
Not so.
The reverse, in fact, no one has a problem with the term 'Emglan manager' or 'England coach'. Especially not the Englsih speaking public.
They like saying 'The England Manager is rubbish' rather than 'The manager of the English football team is rubbish.' Which is both ugly and uneconomical and raise the question WHICH 'English' football team?
When you say the 'England Coach' everyone knows who you mean.
Re: England Team
Under and ENGLAND heaven ?
Llywelyn had agreed that he held North Wales in fee to the ENGLAND king . . .
The ENGLAND King James version Bible
The original Old ENGLAND language
Re: England Team
To Akfarrar: It isn't the King James English bible, as King James was half Scottish, half Danish.
Re: England Team
Every one of those "translations" was taken and from reputable sites on the internet and the word Englsih cnaged to England.
King James was head of the ENGLISH church.
Re: England Team
Ahh.. the red-herring of so-called 'political correctness' gone mad.
Bobby Moore was never referred to as the 'English' captain. So I question your recall.
'England' is the vernacular because the English language, bless it, allows a clear distinction to be made between the political and the sporting entities. The Football team does not represent the English people, it is representative of the best English players available. Nothing more. The Prime Minister, or, if you like, the Queen represent the people. Not footballers.
It is a shame that the sport has become quite so saddled with the national identity, for whatever base motives. The way the language still preserves the distinction is therefore one means of resisting the further politicisation of sport, if not its industrialisation.
This is a term which is used instictively, and no conspiracy at all. To pretend that language is not political is a very political notion, by the way.
Re: England Team
Bobby Moore was never referred to as the 'English' captain.
Strange, I have heard and read that on a considerable number of occasions - used it myself too - so you're wrong on that one.
And try this one for size: "Moore, the only English football captain ever to raise the World Cup" as used in print in a book review.
Also:
The English captain Douglas Jardine leads his team onto the Sydney Cricket Ground
Label on a photograph in an Australian Museum.
As for:
"the sport has become quite so saddled with the national identity" err ... are we talking about a NATIONAL team here being saddled with national identity?
To pretend that language is not political is a very political notion, by the way.
Never made the claim - just think if someone is using it politically, it is my democratic right to contribute to the debate about the use being made and question the reasons for changing the normal use to a new form.
Re: England Team
In the same way we refer to the Manchester manager or the Southampton player, not the Mancunian manager or Sotonian player.
Re: England Team
There is no "Manchester" team in the sense that you use - or I would use Mancunian manger (I am a Mancunian and proud of it).
Re: England Team
I wouldn't like to be the one calling Alex Ferguson a Mancunian to his face.
'Mancunian United'?
I think you speak in jest.
Re: England Team
It should be <>, but shorthand sentences rule these days. Being generous of spirit I surmise the newsreader just skipped one word on the autocue!
Re: England Team
Should be the ENGLISH Team Captain.
No, not a skip - a policy: Not just BBC I'm afraid, CNN have been up to it too.