Access to tonal recognition is not available for a sizable minority of some populations (Britain's for sure)
does this preclude this part of the population from the experience that Daniel is suggesting can 'benefit' the world?
Debate: What about the tone deaf
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Forum visitor Garry Ladd heard Daniel Barenboim's suggestion that music could bring...
Forum visitor Garry Ladd heard Daniel Barenboim's suggestion that music could bring peace. But he had a worry...
- Duration 5 mins
- Published on: Thursday 29th June 2006
- Introductory Level
- Posted under: Music
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Comments
7 Apr 2006 10:01
access to tonal recognition is not available for a sizable minority of some populations (Britain's for sure)
does this preclude this part of the population from the experience that Daniel is suggesting can 'benefit' the world?
9 Apr 2006 13:25
> does this preclude this part of the population from the experience that Daniel is suggesting can benefit' the world?
Though I can't prove it, it does seem to me that you're right. Our older son, 20, has been tone-deaf since he was very small, and the only so-called music he likes is what he calls punk. To my ears, this is not music, but noise, which is why it is so disturbing. No person with ordinary hearing would willingly seek out sheer, unadulterated noise - or would they?
To me, noise equals anarchy, and anarchy does not benefit the world, or the individuals in it.
14 Apr 2006 09:38
Vivien,
please excuse my rudeness, but where have you been since the 1950s?
Garry
14 Apr 2006 12:02
> > does this preclude this part of the population from
> the experience that Daniel is suggesting can benefit'
> the world?
>
> Though I can't prove it, it does seem to me that
> you're right. Our older son, 20, has been tone-deaf
> since he was very small, and the only so-called music
> he likes is what he calls punk. To my ears, this is
> not music, but noise, which is why it is so
> disturbing. No person with ordinary hearing would
> willingly seek out sheer, unadulterated noise - or
> would they?
>
> To me, noise equals anarchy, and anarchy does not
> benefit the world, or the individuals in it.
I've got perfect pitch and love punk. I've never derived much pleasure from listening to classical music or opera. Also - and this surprises me - I dislike classical music even more as I grow older (I'm 53).
P.S. I love listening to Peter Dawson!
9 Apr 2006 15:16
This is [one of the reasons] why the question about the kind of understanding music offers is important.
21 Apr 2006 10:27
All I can say to this is "Evelyn Glennie".
Her deafness is profound but she is able to participate in the making of music.
I hate to say it again - but at no point so far has Barenboim claimed "classical" music to be the only type of music - other people keep ascribing that view to him, he hasn't said it himself.
Music is not only about tone, so tone deafness doesn't exclude anyone. In fact, perfect pitch can be a big a problem: One of my nieces has it and she can't bear to hear a great deal of music which isn't in pitch.
22 Apr 2006 11:04
Ms. Glennie was in my mind whilst thinking about this posting, akfarrar. Specifically, I’m interested in the mechanism – assuming her ear doesn’t demodulate an acoustic disturbance – employed to demodulate the sound wave within her brain. Given that the body is a large mass, it’s clear that it will possess a relatively large acoustic time constant and only respond to low frequencies. I’ve often wondered if this was the reason why Ms. Glennie was attracted to percussion.
But isn’t musicality identified within a child because of their ability to play by ear? If one isn’t able to differentiate between frequencies, then how does one know what one’s playing or singing? All the musicians I’ve ever known will cringe if they hear someone singing out of tune. Don’t people laugh when they hear Florence Foster Jenkins, simply because her tone deafness is associated with a lack of musical ability?
P.S. I've always wondered why it's so pleasurable when one hears a musician playing harmonics (especially on the trumpet or violin).
24 Apr 2006 08:00
The point about frequency was raised by DB in lecture 2 - his assertion being that the sound goes directly into the part of the brain linked to the emotions. Also there was the connection between the "touch" nerves and the sense of hearing.
Music is as much about rhythm as tone - drumming being a remarkably strong stimulant to the brain.
24 Apr 2006 13:42
There is connection between all the senses at some point... and each of the 'senses' in a general understanding has some pairing: someone who loses the sense of smell will also lose something of there sense of tastes etc
if the tone deaf go to a concert hall to experience classsical music they will not come away pleased with the visceral touch of the music - they will have no 'technique' for interpreting the vibrations (and they will not be able to distinguish between originated sound and reverberation, which in some concert halls is totally dependednt on where you are located - there are parts of the RLPH that are pure bass trap and the vibrations one would feel there result from room dynamics not directly from the orchestra)
DB is talking about classical music - which is tonally specific - giving humans an intellectual structure which can be utilised to make us better humans collectively (not individually). However, tonal-capabilities are a pre-requistite of accquiring this structure.
DB was clear to make the distinction between formalised musicallity and informal musics such as Pop and musak. The distinction which he set out in the first two lectures is that the appreciaition of formal music requires us to train our our brain to hear/interpret the music. It is the result of this training that he seeks to popularise as a social benefit.
His contiued use of the piano during the lectures to demostrate his point only serves to re-emphasise mine. Can the tone-deaf benefit (socially) from a training for which they do not have the pre-requisites, ie Tonal Distinction?
25 Apr 2006 06:54
DB is talking about classical music
Is he?
Or is he talking about music using his knowledge( Unspecified most of the time) of music in general ?
Is what he is saying inapplicable to other "sorts" of music?
Most of the time he seems to be talking about performing music - so the concert hall is not the only way of experiencing music.
And DB did say very specifically that people do not have to listen/understand music HIS way - any method of intellectual thought about the music is valid as far as he is concerned - so tone is NOT a prerequisite.
25 Apr 2006 11:23
Barenboim did not say "any method of intellectual thought about the music is valid as far as he is concerned" or anything like it. If you really are tone deaf then you will miss out on a large part of the experience of music whatever kind of music you are listening to, apart from perhaps a drum solo.
26 Apr 2006 06:52
There are many things which make people miss out on "the experience of music" - if you take that to mean there is only one experience - DB is pointing out that there are many experiences - his is not the only valid one.
More important, DB is saying Music is more than "experience" in terms of aesthetic - it is a way we learn to think, to feel and to interpret the world: Tone deafness is not going to stop anyone from developing their persons in these aspects - no two people will ever develop the same way.
To many people in the world, the rhythm is much more important than the tone - music is DANCE: and DB has NOT said he is talking about classical music (he barely uses those terms - and when he has - lecture 3 - it has been about the "crisis" of people not listening to it.
21 May 2006 19:07
I am very much confused after these series of lectures as it seems to bring out much issues about life that seemed to be ambiguous.
Garry asks, what about the tone-deaf? I ask what about the deaf? Is music indispensable? Can one survive without music?
Perhaps, we should spend more time pondering over the truth in life and perhaps attain some enlightenment, through whatever means which includes music (all kinds). Music is one of which we can learn about life from.
It doesn't really matter whether you are tone deaf or not, as each individual has the potential to relieve himself from troubles and worries.
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Originally published: Thursday, 29th June 2006
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- Image 'Accordion close-up' - Copyrighted: Jupiter Images
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