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Debate: Universal law

By: The OpenLearn team (The Open University)

Forum member Xie_Ming posed a question about how different societies might share a legal basis

10 Nov
2009
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Jupiter Images A bronze of Rodin's The Thinker

Is it feasible for a system of sovereign nations to develop a law which is equally applicable to and within all nations?

Take the specific example of genocide.

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Is universal law possible?

Archive Comments
13 Jan 200914:06

Is it feasible for a system of sovereign nations to develop a law which is equally applicable to and within all nations?

Take the specific example of genocide.

Re: Is universal law possible?

Archive Comments
23 Jan 200904:43 

Is it feasible for a system of sovereign nations to develop a law which is equally applicable to and within all nations?


Take the specific example of genocide.

It seems highly unlikely that one particular system can be incorparated in an orderly fashion by one section of a community and rule makers upon another.

Re: Is universal law possible?

Archive Comments
04 Feb 200920:14 

It seems highly unlikely that one particular system can be incorparated in an orderly fashion by one section of a community and rule makers upon another.

It seems to me unreasonable that you should believe this given that this is what happens in many modern states.

In Federal systems such as the USA or Germany there can be a distinction between Federal and state laws.
These sytems work reasonably well (discuss?) and there seems no reason to think that similar constructions should not be able to aply on a grander scale.

How about we start with states agreeing to adhere to the value systems that they espouse?

Re: Is universal law possible?

Archive Comments
05 Feb 200909:16 

It seems to me unreasonable that you should believe this given that this is what happens in many modern states.


In Federal systems such as the USA or Germany there can be a distinction between Federal and state laws. These sytems work reasonably well (discuss?) and there seems no reason to think that similar constructions should not be able to aply on a grander scale.


How about we start with states agreeing to adhere to the value systems that they espouse?

This is a problem. If we consider the "Universal Declaration of Human Rights", or even the European Union, the Devil is in the interpretation and application.

One great difficulty is the collectivist vs. individualist orientation. Consider Confucian emphasis on family and local community vs. Western (ancient Greek) individualism and competetion and universalism.

I think that some sort of World federalism must be achieved, but how to approach it is quite a puzzle.

Re: Is universal law possible?

Archive Comments
07 Feb 200919:39 

This is a problem. If we consider the "Universal Declaration of Human Rights", or even the European Union, the Devil is in the interpretation and application.


One great difficulty is the collectivist vs. individualist orientation. Consider Confucian emphasis on family and local community vs. Western (ancient Greek) individualism and competetion and universalism.


I think that some sort of World federalism must be achieved, but how to approach it is quite a puzzle.

You need war to bring things together.

Not that big a puzzle really.

Re: Is universal law possible?

Archive Comments
09 Feb 200901:56

One then postulates world empire vs. world federalism.

I think that federalism is more realizable and a better approach.

Re: Is universal law possible?

Archive Comments
19 Feb 200903:12 

One then postulates world empire vs. world federalism.


I think that federalism is more realizable and a better approach.

The ants and bees are ahead of us, oh and the termites, but we probably won't live long enough to evolve that far.

Re: Is universal law possible?

Archive Comments
20 Feb 200902:29 

The ants and bees are ahead of us, oh and the termites, but we probably won't live long enough to evolve that far.

_________________________________

Ants and bees have been styled "super-organisms" wherein collectivism is carried to such a point that the entire colony acts as though it were a single body.

I suspect that military organisations strive for this, but never can achieve it.

The Confucianism of the educated has sought to approach a practical collectivism, wherein the leader must be paternalistic.

Re: Is universal law possible?

Archive Comments
21 Feb 200920:23 

_________________________________


Ants and bees have been styled "super-organisms" wherein collectivism is carried to such a point that the entire colony acts as though it were a single body.


I suspect that military organisations strive for this, but never can achieve it.


The Confucianism of the educated has sought to approach a practical collectivism, wherein the leader must be paternalistic.

there are a lot of young people who are stupid and will remain so into old age and dotage so the hierachal assumption in Confucianism towards elders has to be challenged.

paternalism is too open to abuse without check (especially in my childhood, maternalism was as bad)

power blah exploitation ultimate power blah blah

Re: Is universal law possible?

Archive Comments
22 Feb 200916:21 

there are a lot of young people who are stupid and will remain so into old age and dotage so the hierachal assumption in Confucianism towards elders has to be challenged.


paternalism is too open to abuse without check (especially in my childhood, maternalism was as bad)


power blah exploitation ultimate power blah blah

many young people appear stupid because of a lack of beneficient parenting; that being said, all the young people I know are highly intelligent, more-so than many of the adults I know

Re: Is universal law possible?

Archive Comments
23 Feb 200913:06 

many young people appear stupid because of a lack of beneficient parenting; that being said, all the young people I know are highly intelligent, more-so than many of the adults I know

I wish I could find the words to discribe how depressed I am by your thoughts

Re: Is universal law possible?

Archive Comments
07 Feb 200918:23

I think it is true that just about any 'declaration of intent' made by states or non-state organisations throughout history have invariably not been lived up to by those very groups.

Still, the evolution of ever larger socio-political groupings does suggest the possibility (probability or even necessity) of some form of global framework for co-operation and interaction at some point in the future.

Re: Is universal law possible?

Archive Comments
23 Jan 200916:44 

It seems highly unlikely that one particular system can be incorparated in an orderly fashion by one section of a community and rule makers upon another.

If that were so, then how would city states become nations, or stations become greater states?

Re: Is universal law possible?

Archive Comments
14 Jan 200918:06 

Is it feasible for a system of sovereign nations to develop a law which is equally applicable to and within all nations?


Take the specific example of genocide.

In a word NO.

Re: Is universal law possible?

Archive Comments
16 Jan 200914:58

This is an issue that is deeply sensitive because of recent real events. Humbly, it seems to me that not only is it feasible, it is essential. Whatever the inherent flaws of such a notion, it has to be better than the alternative, which is that there is no hope of deterrence, no hope of prevention and no hope of justice for the victims. There may be serious questions to be asked about how such a system should be set-up and administered. Maybe it is even true that no such system could ever be wholly dispassionate, wholly equitable in its judgements. But would its mistakes and injustices really be worse than the injustices of its non-existence?

Re: Is universal law possible?

Archive Comments
17 Jan 200901:30 

This is an issue that is deeply sensitive because of recent real events. Humbly, it seems to me that not only is it feasible, it is essential. Whatever the inherent flaws of such a notion, it has to be better than the alternative, which is that there is no hope of deterrence, no hope of prevention and no hope of justice for the victims. There may be serious questions to be asked about how such a system should be set-up and administered. Maybe it is even true that no such system could ever be wholly dispassionate, wholly equitable in its judgements. But would its mistakes and injustices really be worse than the injustices of its non-existence?

________________________

I have to agree. My idea is that we should immediately begin working toward it. This means surrendering at least some aspects of sovereignty.

How general could such a universal law be? "Not very", it seems to me. Consider the Communitarianism and Confucianism of the Chinese vs. the ethos of the United States.

Perhaps the most fertile and feasible fields would be international criminal, maritime and trade law.

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