Transcript
On 2 March 1896, members of the Prisoners’ Education Committee visited Wormwood Scrubs Prison to interview male and female prisoners about their experiences of schooling while serving sentences of imprisonment. Five male and two female prisoners were interviewed. What follows are extracts from the interviews of four of the prisoners, two males (W.P. and A.B.) and two females (M.H. and K.T.).
Although several of the Committee members put questions to the prisoners, in this reconstruction they have been voiced by one person, a member of staff from The Open University. The responses given by W.P., A.B., M.H. and K.T. have been voiced by two former prisoners.
W.P. (male prisoner) called and examined
Robert Mitford (chair): How long have you been here?
W.P. (prisoner): Since 16th December.
Robert Mitford (chair): What is your sentence?
W.P. (prisoner): Eight months.
Robert Mitford (chair): You are under instruction – being taught now?
W.P. (prisoner): Not yet.
Robert Mitford (chair): Does not the schoolmaster instruct you?
W.P. (prisoner): He has come round twice.
Robert Mitford (chair): When does he come to you?
W.P. (prisoner): Thursday and today.
Robert Mitford (chair): Those are the only times?
W.P. (prisoner): Yes.
Robert Mitford (chair): What are you learning now?
W.P. (prisoner): I am trying to do sums.
Robert Mitford (chair): Can you read and write?
W.P. (prisoner): I can read pretty well.
[…]
Major-General Sims: You did not do much schooling?
W.P. (prisoner): No.
Major-General Sims: How much did you do?
W.P. (prisoner): Three months altogether – the death of my mother stopped me going to school.
Mr Merrick: What age were you then?
W.P. (prisoner): Eleven.
Mr Merrick: What standard were you in when you left the school?
W.P. (prisoner): I was in the second, and they put me in the third.
Mr Merrick: Were you short in arithmetic?
W.P. (prisoner): Yes.
Mr Merrick: What use have you made of what you learned in school?
W.P. (prisoner): Forgot it all.
Mr Merrick: You never used it?
W.P. (prisoner): No.
Mr Merrick: What is the advantage of your learning now?
W.P. (prisoner): To help me when I get older.
Mr Merrick: In what way do you think?
W.P. (prisoner): I might go to work, better work.
Mr Merrick: You did not think of that before?
W.P. (prisoner): No.
[…]
Robert Mitford (chair): Have you ever been in prison before?
W.P. (prisoner): Here, last year: went out last June.
Robert Mitford (chair): What sentence did you get last year?
W.P. (prisoner): Six months.
Robert Mitford (chair): Did you learn much then?
W.P. (prisoner): I learned how to do simple multiplication.
Robert Mitford (chair): Did you remember that when you came in this time?
W.P. (prisoner): Yes.
Mr Merrick: Did you make use of it at all while you were out?
W.P. (prisoner): I was obliged to, to reckon up – I was working for the ‘Evening News’.
Mr Merrick: You found what you learned in prison enabled you to do that?
W.P. (prisoner): Yes.
[…]
A.B. (Male Prisoner) called and examined.
Robert Mitford (chair): How long have you been in here?
A.B. (prisoner): Four months.
Robert Mitford (chair): What is your sentence?
A.B. (prisoner): Five months.
Robert Mitford (chair): Are you receiving education from the schoolmaster?
A.B. (prisoner): Yes.
[…]
Robert Mitford (chair): What are you learning here?
A.B. (prisoner): Some sums and writing.
Robert Mitford (chair): What sums are you doing?
A.B. (prisoner): Addition, subtraction and money sums.
Robert Mitford (chair): Do you make any use of this when you are outside?
A.B. (prisoner): Yes, I have to work.
Robert Mitford (chair): What do you work at?
A.B. (prisoner): Costering.
Robert Mitford (chair): You find the calculations useful to you?
A.B. (prisoner): Yes.
[…]
Mr Merrick: Can you write a letter?
A.B. (prisoner): I wrote the first one here.
Major-General Sim: You are a London man?
A.B. (prisoner): Yes.
Major-General Sim: How did you miss going to school?
A.B. (prisoner): My father used to have me work.
Major-General Sim: Did the Board man try to catch you?
A.B. (prisoner): I had to work. I could earn more money at eight years old than I could now.
Mr Merrick: How old are you?
A.B. (prisoner): 24
Mr Merrick: You think what you learn in school has been of service to you?
A.B. (prisoner): Yes.
Mr Merrick: When you say you would like to learn more – what do you mean?
A.B. (prisoner): To read more difficult books.
Mr Merrick: Do you work at it every day when you have the opportunity?
A.B. (prisoner): When I have got a chance I sit down and do a little writing or reading.
Mr Merrick: You like schooling?
A.B. (prisoner): Yes.
M.H. (Female Prisoner) called and examined.
Robert Mitford (chair): How long have you been here?
M.H. (prisoner): Six months.
Robert Mitford (chair): Are you receiving instruction from the schoolmistress?
M.H. (prisoner): Yes.
Robert Mitford (chair): What is she teaching you?
M.H. (prisoner): Reading and writing.
Robert Mitford (chair): Are you doing sums?
M.H. (prisoner): I am learning addition.
Robert Mitford (chair): Did you know anything when you came in here?
M.H. (prisoner): No.
[…]
Mr Merrick: Can you read a letter?
M.H. (prisoner): No.
Mr Merrick: Would you like to read and write?
M.H. (prisoner): Yes.
Robert Mitford (chair): You have letters from your mother?
M.H. (prisoner): Yes; I had one.
Robert Mitford (chair): You could not read it?
M.H. (prisoner): Yes.
Robert Mitford (chair):Could you have done that when you first came in?
M.H. (prisoner): No; nothing when I first came in.
Mr Merrick: Can you understand it when you have read it?
M.H. (prisoner): Yes.
Robert Mitford (chair): Have you written an answer to it?
M.H. (prisoner): No, not yet. I expect to do it one day this week.
Mr Merrick: What age were you when you went to work first?
M.H. (prisoner): 15.
Mr Merrick: Did you not go to school before 15?
M.H. (prisoner): No.
Mr Merrick: Did not your mother send you?
M.H. (prisoner): No.
Mr Merrick: What did you do at home?
M.H. (prisoner): Rag-sorting.
K.T. (Female Prisoner) called and examined.
Robert Mitford (chair): How long have you been in prison?
K.T. (prisoner): Nine months.
Robert Mitford (chair): Are you receiving instruction from the schoolmistress?
K.T. (prisoner): Yes.
Robert Mitford (chair): What standard are you in?
K.T. (prisoner): I could not do anything when I came here; I can read and write now.
Robert Mitford (chair): You could not when you came in?
K.T. (prisoner): No; not at all.
Robert Mitford (chair): Do you belong to London?
K.T. (prisoner): Yes.
Robert Mitford (chair): What part of London?
K.T. (prisoner): City.
Robert Mitford (chair): How was it you never went to school?
K.T. (prisoner): I was married before I was 15, only I put down I was older?
Robert Mitford (chair): Have you ever been in prison before?
K.T. (prisoner): Yes.
Robert Mitford (chair): Were you taught then?
K.T. (prisoner): No.
Robert Mitford (chair): Can you read and write now?
K.T. (prisoner): I can understand for myself.
Robert Mitford (chair): Can you understand what you read?
K.T. (prisoner): I can read a book.
Robert Mitford (chair): Can you write a letter?
K.T. (prisoner): I could to my friends.
Robert Mitford (chair): Are you glad to be taught here?
K.T. (prisoner): Yes.
Robert Mitford (chair): Do you think it will be useful to you?
K.T. (prisoner): Yes.
Robert Mitford (chair): What do you do when you are outside?
K.T. (prisoner): Buying and selling.
Robert Mitford (chair): Do you think it will be useful to you to read and write and do sums?
K.T. (prisoner): Yes.
Robert Mitford (chair): What do you mean by buying and selling?
K.T. (prisoner): In the market place – buying goods and selling.
Mr Merrick: What market?
K.T. (prisoner): Petticoat Lane.
Mr Merrick: Were you able to do that?
K.T. (prisoner): Yes.
Mr Merrick: You knew whether you were being cheated or not?
K.T. (prisoner): Yes.
Mr Merrick: Well, what would five jackets come to at one shilling six pence each?
K.T. (prisoner): (after a slight pause) seven and sixpence.
Mr Merrick: Is it reading and writing you would like to do?
K.T. (prisoner): Yes.