# Transcript

AZITA CHELLAPPOO:

Investigating philosophy. Identifying and addressing racism.

Hi, I’m Dr Azita Chellappoo from The Open University, and I’m here with Dr Helen Ngo who is a research fellow at Deakin University.

HELEN NGO:

Hi, Azita. Thanks for inviting me.

AZITA CHELLAPPOO:

So there’s lots of different ways of understanding what racism is. Some people think of it in terms of individual actions or in terms of some policies and laws. For other people, it’s not just actions, but those actions have to be backed by subconscious racist beliefs or racist feelings.

And there’s also these processes of racialisation. Do you think that our definition or understanding of racism affects how we identify and then confront or dismantle racism in the real world?

HELEN NGO:

Yes, it absolutely does because if we understand racism in very narrow terms, then I think we’re only ever going to be able to identify it in a very sort of narrow set of circumstances. And in fact, what you tend to see is that when people try to point to instances of racism that don’t fall within that, then you end up in a kind of - I don’t know, cultural wars here. Oftentimes, that’s what you see.

So I guess to give an example, to go back to the different definitions of racism that we’ve touched on already, if we understand racism primarily as actions or behaviours between individuals that are intended to subjugate another person - and I take that example because I think in the Australian context, that tends to be the dominant way that we understand racism, as these interpersonal interactions, where, say, racial epithets etc might be thrown about.

If we take that as our definition of racism, then it only leads to a very narrow set of circumstances being identified as such. And in fact, what African American philosopher of race Naomi Zack has said is that it also just leads us to a politics of politeness, whereby we think the way to deal with racism is all just to be nice to each other, which does nothing at all to address the underlying racial disparities that we have socioeconomically, over-incarceration of First Nations people here.

AZITA CHELLAPPOO:

Could you give an example of where our understanding of racism affects whether or not we think something in the real world is racist?

HELEN NGO:

Yeah. So one example that I think can bring out this point nicely is that if you walk into a kids’ store or a bookshop, and you look around at the books that are on display, what you most likely will see that the books on display will predominantly feature white protagonists, kids, friends, families, etc.

And I think there was a study some years back actually based in the UK where people did a survey of children’s book titles readily available and found that you were seven times more likely to see an animal as the main protagonist than you were to see a person of colour, which really says something about the disparity. It’s sort of a known problem now in the publishing industry that there is an over-representation of white protagonists and an under-representation of people of colour.

Now, if we take a definition of racism, whereby we think it’s - that, for one, it’s predominantly interpersonal or, two, that we think that it’s - that it needs to be intended sort of through a process of conscious intention as well, we’ll probably struggle to see that as falling within the definition of racism.

We might think that it’s a problem, but it’s not necessarily racist. Or we might not even see that as a problem, actually. But then when you think of the flow-on effects, what does this mean for children when they don’t routinely see themselves in the books, don’t see themselves reflected in books, when they only see predominantly white children as actors who are doing - who are on adventures or involved in struggling with - struggling and learning to overcome certain problems?

What does it do for educators who are engaging with these books and children and how they respond to the children that they are constantly in touch with? And it has these sort of flow-on effects that I think are important to capture within our definition of racism. But I think that we don’t get there.

AZITA CHELLAPPOO:

Thank you for joining us, Helen. That was a really fascinating discussion.

HELEN NGO:

My pleasure, Azita. Nice talking to you.