Transcript

REHANA POPAL:

My name is Rehana Popal. I'm a barrister. And I practise at 33 Bedford Row Chambers. My practise is quite wide-ranging, but it predominately encompasses public law, and within that, immigration asylum, human rights.

LESLIE THOMAS:

My name is Leslie Thomas. I'm a Queen's Counsel. That means that I am a senior barrister.

I've been practicing for about 30 years. I practise in the field of human rights, actions against the state, actions against the police, some of the civil litigation. I'm a former Head of Chambers at one of the largest sets of chambers. Set of chambers is an office where barristers work. I'm now just practicing. I'm also a Professor of Law at Gresham College and a Visiting Professor of Law at University of London, Goldsmiths College.

REHANA POPAL:

The reason why I decided to enter the legal profession at that point as a child wasn't a sense of I need to justice or safeguard other people. It was from watching a TV show. That my brother walks into the living room. My brother was watching a show.

And I said, who are these people who wear wigs and standing in court and talk? And he said, barristers. I was like, OK, great. That's what I'm going to do when I grow up.

I think the attraction specifically to immigration comes from my own background, having that immigrant background. And it resonated with me. And just always having that kind of broader international human rights interest. And I think it was kind of the mixture of my background being here and that general interest in politics that kind of all folded into my immigration interest.

LESLIE THOMAS:

I decided to enter the legal profession for two main reasons. When I was at school, we had a really inspirational sociology teacher, who encouraged me to think outside the box. And I wanted to do something where I could use my mind.

The second reason why I decided to enter the profession was due to an unfortunate experience that I had when I was about 14, 15 years old. I was walking home from school one afternoon. I was in school uniform.

And I was stopped by a number of police officers, who decided to do a random search on me for no good reason. When I asked the officers why they wanted to search me, I was told simply to shut up, turn out my pockets, and put up with it. I'll never forget that day.

I thought to myself, this is unfair, unjust. I thought I was randomly picked up for no good reason. And I thought, perhaps I could do something to redress the balance and use the negative energy I had from that situation and turn it into something positive. So I decided that I wanted to become an advocate, a barrister, one of those lawyers who appears in court and argues for the rights of others.

REHANA POPAL:

So when I qualified, I didn't know at the time that I was going to be the first ever Afghan female to qualify in England and Wales. It wasn't an objective that I set out to do. It just happened by default.

LESLIE THOMAS:

I want to say a little bit about being in particular a black barrister at the bar in England and Wales. It's not easy. There have been times when I have experienced racism and discrimination.

Let me give you a couple of examples. I remember on one occasion I was entering the court building. And there was security there. And I stood in line and took my turn.

And I remember other barristers, white barristers, who were dressed just like me. The only difference between me and them was the colour of our skin. They were being waved through by the security guards, and I wasn't.

And I couldn't understand that. And when I got to the security guard, and I asked why they didn't wait their turn, I was effectively told that let them do their job. And I was searched even more thoroughly than they were. So that's one experience.

The second thing is, it's the assumptions people make about you. Oftentimes, these assumptions are unconscious assumptions. So I know many black lawyers who go into court. And they're assumed to be anyone other than the lawyer. So in my time, I've been assumed to be the defendant, the defendant's brother, the defendant's father, the clerk, or, perhaps, a friend.

REHANA POPAL:

My experiences whilst being at the bar so far is, it's all been on the whole very positive. But there have been times when I have felt discrimination. That predominantly comes from clients who, perhaps, pick. "Oh, I've wanted white male barristers," as opposed to young females or those who are ethnic minority. And that's been one of the challenges that I faced.

My client wanted a white male barrister because that client thought the judge is probably going to be a white male barrister, so they're probably more likely to understand one another. Now, that comes from an ignorant point of view I fully accept. But also, that's a failure of our judicial system or our legal system.

Because the reality is, our judiciary is not diversified. And that is the perception that she had of what a barrister needs to look like. And that is incorrect.

LESLIE THOMAS:

Diversity in a legal profession is important for a number of reasons. And I'm going to see if I can set those out. Firstly, I believe it's beneficial to have individuals of various talents, whether in the group, company, or social setting. It's what I describe as the variety argument why diversity matters. I think diversity makes us become more sensitive to traditions that we maybe aren't familiar with. And that, in turn, makes us better lawyers.

Different backgrounds and cultures approach conflict in different ways. And therefore, people with diverse backgrounds can provide different insights and new approaches to tackle legal problems and other moral dilemmas. And that makes us more creative. Productivity flourishes in culturally diverse settings. A mind expands when encountering different modes of thinking. Diversity provides innovation, which, in turn, makes us grow culturally and economically.

And finally, I believe diversity connects us. If we just look at the world's most cosmopolitan and integrated cities, these places have tangible benefits, from personal development to enriching communities and the economy as a whole. Diversity acts as a magnet, doesn't it? It attracts talent. And so in my mind, diversity can only be a good thing for the legal profession.

REHANA POPAL:

When you look at the kind of people coming through the court systems, and specifically for the area where I work in, which is asylum and immigration, these people are not going to be white or English. They don't need to claim asylum in England. They tend to or probably going to be from other third-world countries coming to the UK.

And so those experiences and being able to speak to them about their experiences or understanding their experiences are incredibly important in understanding their case and then being able to put it forward before the court or the tribunal in the best form that it can be. Diversity and inclusion is incredibly important because it affects every angle of the bar, whether or not it is people's perception of it, to the quality of advocates, to clients' confidence with the legal system. And so I believe, certainly, in my experience, that I think diversity and inclusion are incredibly important.

LESLIE THOMAS:

Despite the challenges, I think I would recommend a career at the bar for a number of reasons. I think there are very few professions where you get to be as creative, use your mind, help people, and challenge a system. You can do really good things.

And I'd had 30 years, with some negatives. But the vast majority of my time as a lawyer and, in particular, as a barrister has been positive. I just think it's an amazing career, and one that I would encourage people, particularly people of colour. Because I think it's important to have as much diversity as possible in this profession.