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In general i agree that music is a greatly under-rated part of life and does not play a big enough part in society, due to lack of education. I don't think that Daniel Barenboim is necessarily so highly against modern or popular music such as Jazz, Blues, Rock etc. and one must remember that his life IS classical music and has been since birth. As a huge fan of many types of music I agree that we should increase musical education from the very young upwards (this education should include different genres of music), i am not sure from what Daniel says whether he thinks that all children should be taught a musical instrument, or whether he he just means that we should all learn more about music in other ways? what do you think?
I think that Mr Barenboim must be right about the lack of musical education or else why would I, as a highly intelligent and educated music lover (i also have a physics degree), know so little about the structure and forms of music, and I find BBC Radio 3 so inaccessible.
Anyone have any comments or views on that?
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musical education?
In general i agree that music is a greatly under-rated part of life and does not play a big enough part in society, due to lack of education. I don't think that Daniel Barenboim is necessarily so highly against modern or popular music such as Jazz, Blues, Rock etc. and one must remember that his life IS classical music and has been since birth. As a huge fan of many types of music I agree that we should increase musical education from the very young upwards (this education should include different genres of music), i am not sure from what Daniel says whether he thinks that all children should be taught a musical instrument, or whether he he just means that we should all learn more about music in other ways? what do you think?
I think that Mr Barenboim must be right about the lack of musical education or else why would I, as a highly intelligent and educated music lover (i also have a physics degree), know so little about the structure and forms of music, and I find BBC Radio 3 so inaccessible.
Anyone have any comments or views on that?
Re: musical education?
Hello Miss T - In my observations, your dilemma regarding musical-education is just a reflection of the earlier departure of education away from a general curriculum into specialist areas tuned to the needs of businesss/indusrty/technology/politics etc. - there is more missing from institutional teaching as institutions are managed on to business/profit/economic 'models' of the theoreticians and power-crazed who are permitted to lead our society.
In my opinion 'reasoning' across a wide platform of disciplines is being limited to those with self-indulgent-curiosities. As an Electronics Engineer my musical and philosophical and intellectual diversity is highly un-settling to the musical 'establishment' - the dilettante is not often welcomed (of course, often he/she may not a 'good' dilettante:-).
In some contemporary examples of great-musicians, one does still identify with examples of high-intellect migrating across multidiscipline - DB a 'classical' example? Are great minds with diversified 'interests' becoming scarce? My limited impression is YES - because there is no 'time' to indulge or there is no formal inclusion of other disciplines in the foundations of good education.
Many of the GREAT musical 'teachers' seemed to spend as much time educating their pupils in art and philosophy as they did upon 'music' - music is arguably at least as important part of 'intelligent' life as anything else - YET - we find it's 'accomplishments' are treated as elitist or popularises and elevated by business fractions before a manic society to overpaid demi-god-like status.
AlanD ("D" for Dilettante of course:-)
Re: musical education?
I just discovered that the OU has a neew course on 'Listening to Music'. Might help those of us who for one reason or another, missed out.
Re: musical education?
The current music education for GCSE and A level in the UK is too basic in my opinion. Although being the most important subject for me, I cannot find anything within my A2 music syllabus that really challenges me!
If I could change anything about music education today, it would be to include something on the philosophy of music or even the role of music in modern day society
Nick
Re: musical education?
I am studying music at school (AS level) and am finding that our music department is very poorly funded. I go to a high school, with 1,500 pupils, on the Isle of Wight, where we have a three school system. At the beginning of the year the two music teachers were given a few hundred pounds for the whole year! There are only eight people in 6th form who do music and only four of them are doing the exam. As a consequence of poor teaching, I may not do music next year.
My main point is that music as a subject isn't taken seriously enough except by a minority. The music teachers are often made to go and 'cover' for an absence elsewhere, which means they don't have time to give extra help or keep the two music rooms in order. Our music department is now linked to the drama department as 'Performing Arts'. This is a bad idea as the drama teachers don't really seem to care if they use the music room's equipment and not return it, or the fact that they are better funded!
I would be interested to hear if this is common place or an exceptional case! Thanks.
Re: musical education?
I am studying music at school (AS level) and am finding that our music department is very poorly funded. I go to a high school, with 1,500 pupils, on the Isle of Wight, where we have a three school system. At the beginning of the year the two music teachers were given a few hundred pounds for the whole year! There are only eight people in 6th form who do music and only four of them are doing the exam. As a consequence of poor teaching, I may not do music next year.
My main point is that music as a subject isn't taken seriously enough except by a minority. The music teachers are often made to go and 'cover' for an absence elsewhere, which means they don't have time to give extra help or keep the two music rooms in order. Our music department is now linked to the drama department as 'Performing Arts'. This is a bad idea as the drama teachers don't really seem to care if they use the music room's equipment and not return it, or the fact that they are better funded!
I would be interested to hear if this is common place or an exceptional case! Thanks.
Re: musical education?
Do we need to rethink the whole of musical education in the way that "English" and "Mathematics" have been rethought - As someone who has taught "Literacy" I know it is a whole different world from teaching English - including the idea of preparing the pupil to USE the language as part of a much wider social/cultural context than the old idea of studying the language.
I think DB is trying to point out the wider context - and hence the need for Musicality to become a central post in all education systems.
Re: musical education?
Yes, sadly music education is confused with instrumental playing!
Whenever I tell people that I am a musician and that I teach music, they inevitably ask: ‘what instrument do you play, what instrument do you teach?’. Yet the word of music should conjure many other images, not only instrumental playing. Music is about singing, musical literacy, history, analysis of compositions; music is about understanding and appreciating opera, symphony, chamber music, folk music, jazz and other genres; music is about choral music and songs. Of course, music includes instrumental playing too and it is, indeed, a wonderful extra bonus. But instrumental playing is not the essence, it is more like the delicious icing on the cake. On the other hand, unless instrumentalists strive to be good musicians, instrumental playing alone will never reveal the full beauty of music.
Defining how to become a good musician, Zoltán Kodály quoted abundantly from Schumann’s “home and life rules” of the Jugend - Album (see talk delivered by Kodály at the Music Academy of Budapest in 1953). Of Schumann “rules” here are just a few, in greatly shortened version: ‘Developing the ear is the most important thing of all. Learn the basic laws of harmony early. Try to sing, however small your voice, from written music without the aid of an instrument. You must learn to understand music on paper. Listen to all folk songs attentively. Begin early the reading of old clefs. The good musician understands the music without a score and understands the score without the music.’
Daniel Barenboim can't have it both ways. I first became disappointed in him when, in a Radio 3 interview, he complained that his Berlin orchestra musicians did not receive sufficiently more pay than music teachers in provincial towns. He was clear that he did not rate provincial music teachers highly, evidently none of them. I protested in a letter to Daniel Barenboim but he did not respond.
Incidentally, Miss Tambourine, it is never too late to start!
Best wishes: Agnes Kory
Re: musical education?
I've only just caught up on your posting. A brilliant point! Educators and people who turn anyone on to music (I don't like the word 'musicologist' though I am one) are actually providing the transfusion of lifeblood for practical musicians, as well as other practical musicans themselves. Unless people are inspired by music, people won't go to the concerts or buy the CDs that players depend upon for their livings. You don't HAVE to play well to inspire people about music. I play Ok on occastions, but am better at talking about it!
Richard Langham Smith
Re: musical education?
Surely the point of DB is that people have to be able to MAKE music?
The industrialisation of music is resulting in our becoming listeners only - and the essential doers (at whatever level of proficiency) are becoming either "professional" (interesting view of DB on professional musicians at times) or(and) mechanised.
The need for music education to become central as a way of improving the way we experience the world is essential for our "humanity".
Re: musical education?
Thanks to everyone for all the replies and suggestions. I think I agree with most of you that we all need to learn more about music theory, it needs to be a more important part of the standard education system and part of everyone's lives. If we can all learn about music, reading music, structure and the myriad of parallels with real life that DB has discussed in his other lectures. If we can be taught this in an easily accessible and inspiring way then it's likely that more children will be inspired to learn instruments and not think of it as a boring chore, like when I was pushed into having recorder lessons at primary school. It's sounds like music needs a push forward in schools and that music teachers could do with a lot more support. I will look into maybe doing some kind of "listening course" - i'll see what i can find on Radio 3 and the internet. Looks like people who are parents and school governers or acting in any positions of influence need to start work on this one. How about if some of our folk musicians, rock musicians and classical musicians started doing talks and sessions in primary schools and also tried to help support the case for increased musical education. Those of you who are music students at school should not give up but work with your music teachers and parents to try and improve the situation.
: )
Re: musical education?
You'll have to choose between having an appreciation of classical music and being politically correct. Part of being a classical music enthusiast is making value judgements. The consensus of opinion amongst cultured people is suprisingly reliable. Britten is a very good composer but not as good as Beethoven, for example. Contermporary work is often not fully understood and appreciated for some years. There are many examples of this. As for Mark Anthony Turnage - who knows if his work will last? I'm afraid Rock music doesn't measure up. Sorry.
Re: musical education?
Making Tracks on Radio 3 is a very good educational program for children. It's important not to dumb-down. I don't believe musical education means studying Musicology. I wonder what Barenboin would say.
Re: musical education?
Well, you would find Shakespeare inaccessible if you had only read "The Sun" or viewed Coronation Street exclusively for most of your life. The skill of concentrated aural listening demanded by much of the serious classical music repertoire is, I fear, out of fashion. In this I agree with Daniel Barenboim.