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A bronze of Rodin's The Thinker Copyrighted imageCredit: Jupiter Images After a shaky start, the Open2 community got into a discussion about whether it can ever be right to torture...

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A Right To Torture?

Archive Comments

30 Jul 200802:14

A RIGHT TO TORTURE?

The news is talking about Amnesty International and China, but not giving any background.

Donnelly, Jack. Universal Human Rights in Theory and Practice. 2nd ed. Ithaca: Cornell University Press, 2002. ISBN: 0801487765.

Rajagopal, Balakrishnan. International Law from Below: Development, Social Movements and Third World Resistance. Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press, 2003. ISBN: 0521016711

Steiner, Henry, and Philip Alston. International Human Rights in Context: Law, Politics, Morals. 2nd ed. Oxford University Press, 2000. ISBN: 0198298498.

The readings and study notes from MIT's free Open Courseware are well worth studying:

http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/web/courses/courses/index.htm
Human Right_11-164Spring-2005\

Re: A Right To Torture?

Archive Comments

31 Jul 200812:04

Hi Xie_Ming,

I'm sure these books and course materials are valuable insights into the subject, but this is a dicussion forum, so we'd like to know what you think. Is there a perspective on this subject that you could share with us?

Re: A Right To Torture?

Archive Comments

31 Jul 200813:49

I do believe that it helps to first have some knowledge about what one wishes to discuss: thus the books and studies. That makes for informed discussion.

Torture is the natural reaction of those who do not subscribe to liberal values or principles.

It is a matter of deciding what sort of world one wishes to live in.

The majority, some 85% or more, are obedient authoritarians who will torture (see Stanley Milgram et sequelae).

Re: A Right To Torture?

Archive Comments

31 Jul 200815:53

True, it can help to have some knowledge about the issues one wants to discuss. However, we allow our users to discuss issues regardless of their knowledge level. After all, we can learn from each other.

Please don't post any more unsolicited book lists or recommendatons. We're happy for users to recommend books to each other, but you're effectively spamming the forums.

Instead, why not let us know your perspective and see how others respond.

Re: A Right To Torture?

Archive Comments

31 Jul 200816:36

Intelligent and interested folk would appreciate and know how to use a selected book list.

That is evidently NOT the level of the this forum.

Re: A Right To Torture?

Archive Comments

31 Jul 200820:25

Intelligent and interested folk would appreciate and know how to use a selected book list.

That is evidently NOT the level of the this forum.

Intelligent people can choose which books to read all by themselves thanks. As it happens, without reading anything on it, I think torture is a viable means of getting information, providing the questioner knows what he/she is doing and not just in it for fun.

Re: A Right To Torture?

Archive Comments

15 Feb 200913:20

Intelligent people can choose which books to read all by themselves thanks. As it happens, without reading anything on it, I think torture is a viable means of getting information, providing the questioner knows what he/she is doing and not just in it for fun.

There a a number of problems with torture:
1) Does the person being tortured have the informaton you require?
2) Therefore will torturing provide the results you require? Will these results be the truth?
3) A trained terrorist will be able to withstand a leve of torture.
4) A trained terrorist is trained to provide misinformation. Direct the process towards the wrong targets.
5)Even the low level of torture (just like any form of abuse for instance domestic violence) can escalate beyond the original intent. For example: Threatening to kill or torture a detainee's loved ones if the desired results are not forthcoming under this threat perhaps because the detainee does not hold this information then the torturer is then committed to carrying out the threat of death or torture of innocent individuals connected to the detainee.
6) The moral code has been breached.
6) This leads to an escalation in the next interrogation and so on...
7) Is the intelligence information correct regarding this detainee? Often it is incorrect. Look on the CIA website and you will find many factural errors regarding everyday knowledge. For example, the Uk's city of Truro is not cited as a city. This may seem trivial and irrelevant, but if simple public knowledge is misleading then it is obvious that covertly obtained information has a high percentage of having errors.
8) Intelligence Officers are under enormous pressure to provide information and it is well documented that information has been malnipulated to fit the scenario rather than admitting failure to provide results. After all, IO do not want to be posted to a lower position or even lose their job.
10) Torture also provides the reason why many previous neutral or friendly individuals change their alligances and thus support for the terrorists. Thus torture gives individuals every reason to hate.
9) Hate is the prime reason why terrorist exist, therefore torture fuels hatred and thus terrorism.
11) Thus torture gives the enemy every reason to hate and thus is a prime recruitment stimulus for terrorist's cause.
12) Democratic societies cannot hold the moral high ground (for example, as against Iraq) while conducting similar interrogative techniques as countries deemed below their own moral standards.

Re: A Right To Torture?

Archive Comments

15 Feb 200922:35

There a a number of problems with torture:

1) Does the person being tortured have the informaton you require?

2) Therefore will torturing provide the results you require? Will these results be the truth?

3) A trained terrorist will be able to withstand a leve of torture.

4) A trained terrorist is trained to provide misinformation. Direct the process towards the wrong targets.

5)Even the low level of torture (just like any form of abuse for instance domestic violence) can escalate beyond the original intent. For example: Threatening to kill or torture a detainee's loved ones if the desired results are not forthcoming under this threat perhaps because the detainee does not hold this information then the torturer is then committed to carrying out the threat of death or torture of innocent individuals connected to the detainee.

6) The moral code has been breached.

6) This leads to an escalation in the next interrogation and so on...

7) Is the intelligence information correct regarding this detainee? Often it is incorrect. Look on the CIA website and you will find many factural errors regarding everyday knowledge. For example, the Uk's city of Truro is not cited as a city. This may seem trivial and irrelevant, but if simple public knowledge is misleading then it is obvious that covertly obtained information has a high percentage of having errors.

8) Intelligence Officers are under enormous pressure to provide information and it is well documented that information has been malnipulated to fit the scenario rather than admitting failure to provide results. After all, IO do not want to be posted to a lower position or even lose their job.

10) Torture also provides the reason why many previous neutral or friendly individuals change their alligances and thus support for the terrorists. Thus torture gives individuals every reason to hate.

9) Hate is the prime reason why terrorist exist, therefore torture fuels hatred and thus terrorism.

11) Thus torture gives the enemy every reason to hate and thus is a prime recruitment stimulus for terrorist's cause.

12) Democratic societies cannot hold the moral high ground (for example, as against Iraq) while conducting similar interrogative techniques as countries deemed below their own moral standards.

Torture is used to instil fear. This might be to extract information or to intimidate and persuade a population into compliance.

Re: A Right To Torture?

Archive Comments

16 Feb 200913:12

Torture is used to instil fear. This might be to extract information or to intimidate and persuade a population into compliance.

__________________________________

To instill fear is one possible purpose of torture. I doubt that it is often a purpose.

From Mafia useage: "Alright, Joe, you are going to die. Do you want it quick or slow?"

Obtaining information is the purpose in that example.

Re: A Right To Torture?

Archive Comments

16 Feb 200917:46

 Torture is used to instil fear. This might be to extract information or to intimidate and persuade a population into compliance.

__________________________________

To instill fear is one possible purpose of torture. I doubt that it is often a purpose.

From Mafia useage: "Alright, Joe, you are going to die. Do you want it quick or slow?"

Obtaining information is the purpose in that example.

"Give me information or I will continue to hurt you", is the use of fear, of pain, by means of torture.

Unless sufficiant fear is instilled then the trade is going to fail.

"Any member of the public caught being disobediant will be hurt with torture", is another trade involving the use of fear, of pain.

If no edict is made the use of torture when it leaks out will instil fear intentionally or otherwise anyway.

(If pain is too exclusive then fear of amputation could figure.)

Re: A Right To Torture?

Archive Comments

17 Feb 200913:28

"Give me information or I will continue to hurt you", is the use of fear, of pain, by means of torture.
Unless sufficiant fear is instilled then the trade is going to fail.
"Any member of the public caught being disobediant will be hurt with torture", is another trade involving the use of fear, of pain.
If no edict is made the use of torture when it leaks out will instil fear intentionally or otherwise anyway.
(If pain is too exclusive then fear of amputation could figure.)

_______________________________

OK. These are two different uses of torture:

a) The fear of further pain in an interrogation.
b) To instill fear and produce conformity in a population.

Re: A Right To Torture?

Archive Comments

17 Feb 200920:11

_______________________________

OK. These are two different uses of torture:

a) The fear of further pain in an interrogation.
b) To instill fear and produce conformity in a population.

___________________________________

The reductio ad absurdum can be carried further:

Food, Fear and Sex are basic human drives.

Fear can inhibit access to food or sex.

Therefore fear is a primordial factor in all human behavior.

But, fear can be overcome by ideological belief (e.g. 72 virgins in Heaven).

Belief (ideology) is therefore controlling.

Epistemology defeats practicality and adolescents must learn to solve life's problems.

Re: A Right To Torture?

Archive Comments

17 Feb 200923:35

___________________________________

The reductio ad absurdum can be carried further:

Food, Fear and Sex are basic human drives.

Fear can inhibit access to food or sex.

Therefore fear is a primordial factor in all human behavior.

But, fear can be overcome by ideological belief (e.g. 72 virgins in Heaven).

Belief (ideology) is therefore controlling.

Epistemology defeats practicality and adolescents must learn to solve life's problems.

72 virgins are no use to a man who is fearful of the scenario but instead you might suggest fantasy which might run to : Fantasy defeats practicality and adolescents must learn to solve life's problems. (No? Look around.)

Re: A Right To Torture?

Archive Comments

18 Feb 200914:24

The reason for saying a "Right" to torture relates to the various efforts to legislate on this matter.

If we can discuss the legislative aspect, both national and international, it may set a basis for a broader thread on the "Right to Intervene", "Responsibility to Protect", Geneva Convention, Genocide and Ethnic Cleansing, etc.

Re: A Right To Torture?

Archive Comments

20 Feb 200903:55

The reason for saying a "Right" to torture relates to the various efforts to legislate on this matter.

If we can discuss the legislative aspect, both national and international, it may set a basis for a broader thread on the "Right to Intervene", "Responsibility to Protect", Geneva Convention, Genocide and Ethnic Cleansing, etc.

Related to this is the teleological assumption: are we, as "civilized" peoples getting better?

Can, and will, we become more civilized?

Fundamentalism, of course, represents the contra trend in human societies.

Re: A Right To Torture?

Archive Comments

21 Feb 200921:08

Related to this is the teleological (the doctrine that the existence of phenomena may be explained with reference to the purpose they serve)
assumption: are we, as "civilized" peoples getting better?

Can, and will, we become more civilized?

Fundamentalism, (the strict maintenance of the ancient or fundamental doctrines of any religion or ideology.) of course, represents the contra trend in human societies.

(are you crossing over from purpose thread because you fell over a big word?)

so what purpose is served by being civilised?

please use small words and open up a bit, do you know the acronym KISS?

Re: A Right To Torture?

Archive Comments

24 Feb 200903:50

The BBC currently has a program wherein the reporter talks to Americans who have actually performed torture.

One said that the purpose was always to instill fear that worse was to come.

On the surface, the intent would be to obtain information.

Another said that only rarely was information obtained.

Re: A Right To Torture?

Archive Comments

19 Feb 200903:48

The reason for saying a "Right" to torture relates to the various efforts to legislate on this matter.

If we can discuss the legislative aspect, both national and international, it may set a basis for a broader thread on the "Right to Intervene", "Responsibility to Protect", Geneva Convention, Genocide and Ethnic Cleansing, etc.

so you mean:

are different countries free to be autonomous until a greater power impedes them?

or maybe:

we should all learn to love each other and be each others keeper?

I'm not really into sci-fi but everyone has seen this episode of Shangri-la and the tiger on Startrek and thought how lovely it would be but you'd have to kick all the undesireables out first.

If you think torture should be banned because it causes too much damage then I should think you'd get through to the next round with out much opposition and even get it passed internationally but some naughty countries would do it anyway just for fun.

Re: A Right To Torture?

Archive Comments

01 Aug 200820:54

Intelligent people can choose which books to read all by themselves thanks. As it happens, without reading anything on it, I think torture is a viable means of getting information, providing the questioner knows what he/she is doing and not just in it for fun.

I MUST QUESTION YOUR ASSERTION THAT TORTURE IS A VIABLE MEANS OF GETTING INFORMATION.Do you know of any 'methods' that produce accurate results?

I WOULD DOUBT THAT THEY EXIST. I feel and believe that physically and psychologically traumatised 'torturees' would seek any means of discontinuing what is happenig to them, which must allow for a victim to saying or doing whatever it takes. Information produced under such methods may or may not be accurate.

Torture is probably a form of revenge or punishment. Also i am interested in the psychology of those who torture , what sort of individuals are they, what are their motives?
You even raise the question of being in it for 'fun' which supports my own concerns.
However i do agree with your statement that intelligent people can make their own decisions without reading about it. I do not think that torture is suitable for an academic discussion nor can it be intellectualised by reading texts. The response needs to be an instant and emotive one, it is an evil undertaken by evil regimes.However i will add that i am not suggesting that no action is taken , for example where terrorism is concerned .

Blackhawk.

Re: A Right To Torture?

Archive Comments

03 Aug 200820:53

Personally I don't know of any torture methods, except the ones you hear about mainstream like pulling nails or Chinese water, as it isn't my thing. I wouldn't even research it, but still think it should be done.
If a nutter is caught making bomb or other weapon then we should be able to do more than ask nicely who his/her friends are. Having it sit there smiling and smugly saying "talk to my lawyer" shouldn't be an available route.
I know it is a volatile subject, but by not discussing it we leave the limits open for the people that do it illegally anyway.

Re: A Right To Torture?

Archive Comments

05 Aug 200818:47

A further thought, are all bomb makers nutters, in my opinion a Tibetan caught making a bomb to use on his/ her oppressors, military or civilian is freedom fighter with a justifiable reason etc.

Re: A Right To Torture?

Archive Comments

05 Aug 200823:46

A further thought, are all bomb makers nutters, in my opinion a Tibetan caught making a bomb to use on his/ her oppressors, military or civilian is freedom fighter with a justifiable reason etc.

All bomb makers (political) are both freedom fighter and terrorist. It just depends where you stand. If a Tibetan freedom fighter blows up 50 chinese troops and avoids civilian casualties, it still deprives mothers of sons, wives of husbands and children of fathers.

Re: A Right To Torture?

Archive Comments

16 Nov 200817:44

Is it a parent's right to feed their children hydrogenated fat?

Is it right to have to bring up a disabled child rather than give it a lethal injection?

A person is tortured and the information received saves your child from dying, do you then hate yourself for being glad?

Nature doesn't do rights, political systems do.

Torture:"...the infliction of severe pain as a punishment or a forcible means of persuasion. " OED

Some high court judges and motor racing executives may argue that it is their right to be tortured.

When torture loses it's value things will be all right

(my Dad used to hit me and look how I turned out)

Re: A Right To Torture?

Archive Comments

10 Jan 200915:45

I have a viewvoint from my sub-culture: No, physical torture is not to be allowed.

It would be followed by "Besides, it does't work well. Professionals know that psychological manipulation is more effective"- which is an argument about practicality, rather than morality.

The reality is that the average (savage) male will use torture reflexively and without thinking and that, much of the time, it does work.

Thus, the practice would reflect the degree of civilisation of the society.

Re: A Right To Torture?

Archive Comments

07 Feb 200921:08

The argument against torture is, in some ways, similar to the one against capital punishment;

Just how sure can one be that the 'subject' has the desired information - has comitted the alleged crime?

Only if one has a high degree of certainty that the 'subject' has the desired information AND that one would be able to distinguish it from all possible dissemblings could torture be considered pragmatically as a reasonable course of action.

I would suggest that this combination of certainties is actually quite rare in practice.
This is the pragmatic argument.

The moral argument is that our right to call ourselves 'civilised' depends not on the way in which we treat our friends but on how we treat our enemies.

How can we claim to defend a value system which abhors practices such as torture by employing such practices?
This is almost the definition of a 'pyrrhic victory'.

There is an argument stated as "the ends justify the means" which I won't go into as it never made any logical sense to me.

Re: A Right To Torture?

Archive Comments

09 Feb 200902:43

What is the necessary logical connection between torture and execution?

Torture is the causing of pain. Execution can be painless and desirable.

"Cruel and unusual punishment" is decried.

Re: A Right To Torture?

Archive Comments

09 Feb 200919:37

What is the necessary logical connection between torture and execution?

Torture is the causing of pain. Execution can be painless and desirable.

"Cruel and unusual punishment" is decried.

The logical connection is that of committing an extreme and irrevocable act in absence of the certainty that it will achieve the desired results.

And if execution can be desirable, why not torture?
Would you rather lose the several decades or your remaining expected lifespan or spend a couple of hours feeling like you're about to drown?

Re: A Right To Torture?

Archive Comments

10 Feb 200900:45

Execution always gets quick and certain results.

Torture includes far more painful practices than waterboarding and many would prefer death. (Cynaide pills were issued to accomodate this preference).

The real question is whether torture is justified. Apparently, the issue is ethical and moral, for whether it is effective can be postulated and the argument remains.

Re: A Right To Torture?

Archive Comments

11 Feb 200902:34

Execution always gets quick and certain results.

Torture includes far more painful practices than waterboarding and many would prefer death. (Cynaide pills were issued to accomodate this preference).

The real question is whether torture is justified. Apparently, the issue is ethical and moral, for whether it is effective can be postulated and the argument remains.

a right to... ...?

step back and first deal with what a right is and who bistows it i.e. is it right to have rights if there is no god to bestow or confer such rights.

then just deal with torture objectively

Re: A Right To Torture?

Archive Comments

12 Feb 200917:46

"The real question is whether torture is justified. Apparently, the issue is ethical and moral, for whether it is effective can be postulated and the argument remains.

a right to... ...?

step back and first deal with what a right is and who bistows it i.e. is it right to have rights if there is no god to bestow or confer such rights.

then just deal with torture objectively "

_________________________________________________
This response implies that no ethics or morality exist to be applied, otherwise, the thread on international law would be the place to "step back and consider" or to deal with torture "objectively".

Re: A Right To Torture?

Archive Comments

12 Feb 200921:04

"The real question is whether torture is justified. Apparently, the issue is ethical and moral, for whether it is effective can be postulated and the argument remains.

a right to... ...?

step back and first deal with what a right is and who bistows it i.e. is it right to have rights if there is no god to bestow or confer such rights.

then just deal with torture objectively "

_________________________________________________
This response implies that no ethics or morality exist to be applied, otherwise, the thread on international law would be the place to "step back and consider" or to deal with torture "objectively".

You have a bias towards ethics and morality that is a reflection of how ethics are considered in 道 .

But this forum is in Europe with a different history towards honourable characteristics.

Do you think that we have anything like an understanding of Filial piety in England?

The Public School system provides a huge insight into torture and its acceptance.

Re: A Right To Torture?

Archive Comments

05 Aug 200820:25

A further and final post, torture methods are limited only by the limits of the imagine of their devisors.

There are basically two divisions, the psychological, and the physical although these can be combined, for example 'security forces' may start with a psychological approach, if this is proving unsatisfactory then will switch to a physical method.

Those security agencies who are a little more 'restrained' will be aware of 'windows of opportunity' linked closely to time scales. (psych 1)

As indicated here there are different grades or classification all within the two main approaches.

As stated earlier i strongly believe there to be no place for torture, unfortunately it happens, and please do not interpret this as patronising but i can assure you that you really do not want to have anything other than your limited knowledge.

'Blackhawk'

Re: A Right To Torture?

Archive Comments

05 Aug 200818:35

this may seem contradictory, inconsistent even, and although i still stand by my views on torture, per se i agree entirely with you regarding terrorism. my solution ( where there is no doubt) is straightforward execution.

i hold this because i still doubt the effectiveness of torture as a means of obtaining info, as revenge and punishment it will be very effective.

to clarify the subject can be discussed, but not from an academic perspective, as an individual will have an opinion that cannot be shaped via texts, its a technical point linked to the very nature of torture.

Blackhawk.

Re: A Right To Torture?

Archive Comments

05 Aug 200823:41

to clarify the subject can be discussed, but not from an academic perspective, as an individual will have an opinion that cannot be shaped via texts, its a technical point linked to the very nature of torture.

Blackhawk.

A great many individual opinions can be shaped by text, that is why the thread starts as it does. In my experience, people who want to "educate" me really want me to come to their viewpoint. Alas we are not all so steady on our feet and this is how the mentally strong find people to be their suicide bombers.
You are right in saying I wouldn't want to go any deeper, so I won't, and may the innocent avoid the wrong hands.

Copyright & revisions

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Originally published: Wednesday, 30th July 2008
Last updated on: Wednesday, 30th July 2008

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Body text - Copyright: The Open University
Image 'A bronze of Rodin's The Thinker' - Copyrighted: Jupiter Images

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