Hi,
Would anybody else prefer to have a group of tob scientific minds in charge of the country or would they not be suitable? please post your opinions?
Ant
Derek's response to the first lecture of the 2005 series of Reith...
Derek's response to the first lecture of the 2005 series of Reith lectures
By: Professor Derek Matravers (The Open University, Faculty of Arts, Philosophy Department)
Lord Broers makes a number of points in his lecture: that we underrate the influence technology has had in shaping the past; that we underestimate the power it has in shaping our future; that technology has been, and will be, overwhelmingly, an influence for the good. In all of these it seems, to me at least, that he is right.
He also makes another point, however, about which I am not sure. That is, he seems to think that scientists ought to communicate their knowledge to the public, and that the public ought to pay attention to such knowledge.
One reason which he gives for this is that it will help to dislodge the unjustified suspicion the public has of technology.
Creative commons imageCredit: MujtabaTM via Flickr
Section of a jet engine [Image: MujtabaTM under CC-BY-NC licence]
Running through the lecture there is the thought that this lack of knowledge is, in itself, a fault. In this, he echoes CP Snow’s lecture, The Two Cultures, which bemoaned the fact that while scientists are expected to know their Shakespeare, those in the arts are not expected to know – and generally don’t know – the second law of thermodynamics.
I side with those (such as FR Leavis) who think Snow was wrong. What is important about technology is that it works and that people make good use of it.
For neither of these is it necessary that people know how how it works. What is important about Shakespeare and music is that they are appreciated with understanding. So it is important that people know their Shakespeare, but not important that they know the second law of thermodynamics, or how a telephone, or indeed a jet engine, works.
It is important that someone knows how they work (otherwise we would not have them) but I can’t see why we all should.
The Two Cultures debate - a collection of weblinks exploring the Snow-Leavis controversy in greater depth
The Two Cultures and the Scientific Revolution
CP Snow, Cambridge University Press
Copyrighted imageCredit: Tom Hewitt
Are human needs shaping technology, or are a few enjoying technology for its own sake? Tom Hewitt respons to Lord Broer's first Reith Lecture. Read more : Leaping forward into the dark
Copyrighted imageCredit: OU
Technology that doesn't find popular support will struggle. Joyce Fortune responds to Lord Broers' first Reith Lecture. Read more : Technology needs to respond to people
Copyrighted imageCredit: OU
The UK needs to get reacquainted with the idea of technology, says Nick Braithwaite in response to Lord Broers' first Reith Lecture. Read more : When technology is spurned, there is no development
Professor Derek Matravers (The Open University, Faculty of Arts, Philosophy Department)
Derek Matravers is professor of philosophy at The Open University.
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Hi,
Would anybody else prefer to have a group of tob scientific minds in charge of the country or would they not be suitable? please post your opinions?
Ant
Rather than designating some highly educated class, such as scientists, as the only ones fit to lead, would it not be better to reform education (and, yes, develop educational technology) so that every member of the public who wishes it can obtain sufficiently advanced education? Democracy relies upon an educated public making informed decisions about their self-interest. A public that is unable to competently make such decisions is more of a threat to democracy than any would-be conqueror.
This would, of course, require something rather different from teaching the sciences as they are taught today. Perhaps the government should hire neutral interpreters, who could digest complex issues and phrase the pros and cons in a manner the public can understand? Some would argue that this would essentially be spending government money on behalf of the technologists, as they are usually less able to clearly state their case than the public-friendly - if often factually-challenged - anti-technology groups. However, better public understanding would seem to be worth that cost, especially since it would focus opposition on any truly awful propositions that come along, rather than critics arguing against any complex change simply because it is complex, and perhaps some officials dismissing all such criticism as usually flawed.
>> If any scientist, or group of scientists, deserve to play a leading role in running a country, >>
Scientists are ordinary people who are trainned in specific approach to looking at the world.
Their discipline, science, is well founded so in some ways scientists have at least one foot in reality.
However they are often blinkered to the social aspects of the world, but they can see consequences that can be invisible to non-science people.
Solution, there must be a mix of advisers from responsible professions who determine and evaluate all the options possible any specific policy can utilise.
The advisers should have open meetings to formulate their list of options and evaluations to ensure that the conclusions become public knowledge. They should engage in a public forum where proposed options can be thoroughly explored and extended.
Scientists, lawyers, economists and business people all must educate each other into wider perspectives.
Being aware of all the options available is the key to success. Blocking hidden agendas must be uncovered.
IMO, we must break the political process wide open so all citizens can have a deeper understanding of where we are headed and why such and such decision should be enacted.
Ultimately, I endorse rule by a group of philosopher kings... Appointed:- lawyer and scientist (the number of each is optional)
consulting with a worldly and intelligent elected people's choice.
No - I can't think of a better system than one whereby the people can regularly endorse or sack the leaders in a democratic way.
However this does lead to a further interesting issue, I like a system which can have the input of people such as Alec Broers, Robert Winston, Robert May, Susan Greenfield et al in the law making process - especially when the issues are scientific.
In other words I would like an appointed House of Lords whereby we at least have the opportunity of having our legislation scrutinised by the best brains in the country (and I do not mean just the scientists mentioned above). I cannot think of a better way of getting a cross section of views than by inviting a few hundred of the leading figures in society to scrutinise the laws proposed by the democratic chamber.
There are clearly issues surrounding how appointments are made (perhaps an independent Lords appointments committee of 10 - 20 Lords) but I'm sure these could be resolved.
I do not believe we would get the same level of scrutiny with an elected second chamber because I do not believe that many of the current appointed Lords would run for election.
Clearly the hereditary peers have no place.
Simply no
Scientist in charge of the country would turn us all in to lab rats, subjects and experiments
The democratic government works like a jury in a court room, a panel of inelegant enough persons to understand the issues at hand and come up with an unbiased approach for the 'greater good'. Scientists are bias, bias towards the furthering of scientific knowledge and experiment. A government to most ends should be un-bias. However, a problem arises; bias people get things done and make decision for better or worst. But at least they make decisions, the nature of democratic government stops governments being so rash again for better or worst. With such a controversial subject of nuclear energy the government’s reaction, rightly so, is to wait and see all the evidence first. However, the immediacy of Global Warming has put a strain on this system and maybe its time to make a decision, as acquittal is not an option. Massive Renewable energy generation is not a viable solution for the next 100 years. The only option appears to be nuclear. Maybe we should put aside our democratic decision process (our jury) and go with what the prosecution (scientists) claims is true.
We could start by organising the selection of candidates for parliament in such a way that the 600-odd MP's contain a significant number of scientists. Perhaps more broadly, parliament should contain more world-class thinkers from various disciplines.
We have had one Prime Minister with a scientific background. She was also married to a successful business man. In my view this "experiment" was pretty good for the UK in the long term.
Margaret Thatcher, might have been a chemistry graduate and hence trained in logic and the scientific method but her ultimate analysis certainly wasn't free from bias - she stopped subsidising the miners - because they voted against her - but she continued to subsidise farmers was that because they typically voted for her ?
scientists cannot possibly have a the monopoly on a 'good' value system, but they may be prepared to be more honest than career politicians ?
Surely the real problem with a scientist running the country (or, for that matter, a barbecue) is that a scientist will want to explore and weight every option before reacting - in other words, we'd still be waiting for their tentative suggestions of how to deal with the the question of the Sudetenland to be peer-reviewed right now...
We can agree that all generalizations about social groups are inherently bound to be disproved. Having said that I feel that scientist lack a key characteristic crucial to governance: the ability to compromise. Like religious leaders, whom they have replaced in our social pantheon, scientists deal in absolute truths. No self respecting scientist is interested in compromising that which he feels to be fact...this is the worst possible mind set for leadership in the modern world.
I do not know how much this affected anything, but perhaps i shouldn't have mentioned technology and natural sciences in the same sentence. Technology tends to be much more inclined towards an immediate actual profit and not so much towards pure knowledge and the benefit of mankind in some distant future. However, i question the necessity of compromise in issues concerning the laws of nature. Water does not flow upwards, no matter what the outcome of the last election was. If the germ kills you, you are dead, no matter what your political opinions are. Of course, the agreement on what actually is the scientific vision of the world can change, but as a result of further research, not a political compromise.
hmmm lots of problems with the idea that scientists cant compromise and deal in absolute truths.
The whole point of the scientific method is to find out what doesn't work. To break the existing theories. The progress that has been made in science is all based upon rejecting recieved wisdom.
Scientists as a group are no more or less qualified to run countries than any other group and that includes the politicians, philosopers, etc. What we need is individuals with passion, vision, drive, along with compassion, and a sense that they are there to serve others. We need humble leaders.
A Scientist with a lot of balls+Compassion can run the coutry good.
> A Scientist with a lot of balls+Compassion can run
> the coutry good.
Same goes for a gardener or street cleaner.
In response to your reply.
Did you know that there are also female scientists!
However, female scientists do not announce their academic capabilities as they do not wish to be labelled.
can people please limit the amount of words in their post. It's quality not quantity,
Please short and simple.
Scientist should not run the country because they take too long to research any concept, because they are scared people.
thats why the drug companies have such a hold on them and us for believing them.
It used to be accepted that talented amateurs, who may well have been scientists but hopefully were multidisciplined, were the people to take the major decisions on national policy. People with financial security to insulate them from bribery and be able to choose the time to study other people's business rather than only their own.
Someone who has gone early into politics full time will probably lack certain kinds of understanding of industry, crafts and arts. Any high powered professional career risks a certain narrowness of experience unless deliberate efforts are made to avoid that. What is needed is a proper education, not just at school but in the world. Scientists should certainly not be excluded.
There´s a short article in this month´s MIT Technology Review on Engineers and Political Power:
http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/04/issue/megascope.asp?trk=nl
Here´s a good relevant chunk.......
As the historian Kendall Bailes wrote in 1974, "What lawyers and businessmen are in the American political system—the major professional groups from which most politicians and policymakers are recruited—men with engineering backgrounds have become to a large extent in the Soviet Union."
In 2004, almost all two dozen members of China’s ruling Politburo had engineering degrees, including all nine members of the Politburo’s Standing Committee. In the Middle East, prominent engineers fill the political spectrum, from former president Süleyman Demirel of Turkey to the members of the Society of Muslim Engineers, pillars of the ayatollahs’ Iran, to the late secular nationalist Yasser Arafat. In many countries, engineering appeals -to the civic minded. On the other hand, disaffected young men recruited in European engineering schools were prominent among the September 11 hijackers. As R. Scott Appleby and Martin E. Marty observe in Foreign Affairs, "fundamentalists tend to read scriptures engineers read blueprints—as a prosaic set of instructions and specifications." Civil engineer Osama bin Laden surely did.
Globally, then, the unpolitical Anglo-American nerd is the exception.
Seems we need some perspective.
Rup3rt
I don't even think scientists are fit to rule science! I agree with russel, the talker tonight illustrated how difficult they find ideas which challenge what is thought of as fact. This is not a trait for social governance where anything you could possibly hold, will shift. This trai seems to continually hinder the progression of our scientific understanding.
Scientists follow intelectual goals. Engineers develop their ideas and have a few of heir own, but politicians have the mental power to control, drive, or dominate the minds of those they lead,
What happens is chance. To improve the chances of success, a development environment must be created. Sweeping negative generalizations such as one individual can not now create important breakthrough are logical nonsense. Our lecturer tonight mentioned Tim Berners-Lee.
I say if we should stop treating our creative people as intelectual slaves whose only worth is to generate taxable revenue. Give them all seed money and culture those that appear successful. Honour them as the creators of our society and give them respect. There is just a chance that one in a thousand will save us all from the fate of stagnation that the ants have chosen to follow.
I was once asked by a friend if i would join menca as I have a high IQ ( I'm an engineering manager ) . I refused because I do not belied in elitist society. Even though i think i'm a thoughtful & responsible individual. I've found that no one group of individuals has a monopoly on wisdom (academic Smart , stupid ect) . I am dialectic and through my life i considered this a disadvantage . Only in the last few years have I discovered this gives me a different way of viewing many problems .So why should we wish to limit our self's to engineers any more than i wish to limit us to politicians.
Robert Heinlein asked the same question in his book "Starship Troopers" - he also gave an answer.
Any measure of intellect is not a measure of how one would behave within the confines of a society, specifically with regard to civic responsibility.
However, there is one group that do demonstrate a level of this; those that have undertaken a period of "national service". In Heinlein's book this was not a forced conscription of military service, but a voluntary period that might involve a range of actual functions (poss including military).
It could be undertaken at any age, and was equally available regardless of gender or physical ability. The reward for completion was the right to vote and take up public office. Failure to complete the required period merely disbarred one from voting and there was never a second chance.
Those that complete this sort of service are not inherently better people, or more intelligent etc. The argument was that undertaking the service showed these people were willing to identify themselves with a larger group than their immediate family and were prepared to take a level of personal responsibility and make sacrifices for that group.
On the whole, other groups of people (such as scientists) do not demonstrate the same level of commitmment. Many are very ego centric and incapable of making the kind of commitment required.
I would add that usually, this particular viewpoint generates some very strong reponses!!
AS a student of science, I think that scientists in government could drive real progress in research and development, but feel that scientists might lack the enterprise and skills to effectively run the country. my solution would be scientists in government not government by scientitsts.
What a fun question!
But no! No scientists as leaders. In fact there is no one group in society that seems especially fit to govern.
However, the true horror of the story is, that after a short while, whatever they were before, leaders inevitably turn into politicians...
Of course Margaret Thatcher was a chemist ...
Maggie, a chemist? !!! Never heard of her lab work, nor of her great theoretical breakthroughs.
What makes you a chemist in your opinion?
Warming-up a ready-made meal?
... and don't economists like to think of themselves as scientists rather than bankers?
When apothecaries and alchemists became aware of their fundamental fantasies and learned to approach the world scientifically they became chemists and chemistry professors. Economists have yet to make such a development. That doesn't prevent them peddling their products as miraculous remedies for the world, despite their recurrent failures causing far more death and devastation than quacks of old. With one voice they told Africans globalisation and the free-market are difficult pills to swallow, but they will solve the continent's problems and make it better. They've made it poorer and worse, and come up with excuses attempting to hide their ignorance.
Economics is currently always ideological. Gordon Brown suggests objectivity when he speaks of 'tests' to determine whether England should join the Euro. But his idea of good and better economies is one among many, including those judging economies on the fair distribution of capital and the reduction of the yawning gap separating the rich from the poor. Economists may do remarkable things, good or bad, but they do not comprehend the forces they play with, they've learnt a handful of tricks but they don't know what they're doing.
For different reasons, given the chance economists and scientists would lead a country to catastrophe.
russell
A hearty no to your question.
I feel Lord Broers' talk illustrate the blinkered perspective on humanity which I imagine might be quite prevalent among scientists. Maybe, like CP Snow suggested, they don't read their Shakespear and regard people as things, using measurable data to determine their values. It seems beyond Boer's comprehension that the scientific advances do not equate to human progress. I'm already concerned about the current trend of politicians to rely on economic analysis, and scientists becoming leading us would only accentuate the dehumanisation of politics.
Now philosopher kings would be another issue.
Russell
So politicians are better people? More likely they are just as arrogant and greedy as anybody else. One could hope politicians were more educated in technical and scientific issues. The idea of some ignorant moron somewhere making decisions about nuclear weapons or deliberately spread diseases in the hope that the outcome can be controlled is scary. So are the choices made all over the world on issues concerning industry, farming, waste control, even sociological issues like social care and legislation. Scientists are very much needed where they are and probably happier doing their own job but they do have knowledge that should not be ignored.
Plato didn't appear to be very fond of the people who practised technology so I guess he would have nominated himself as the first philosopher king - though who knows whether his portrayal of Socrates was quite as accurate as he would have liked us to believe? Maybe the traditional image of the man with the austere life seeking no reward for his logical approach to all things is a false one...
If you examine innovation in technology through time it does appear that its prime movers are status-seeking and conflict, which appeal because they have immediate and visible results, whether beneficial to society as a whole or not. If any scientist, or group of scientists, deserve to play a leading role in running a country, they should be aware of that, and act as a brake on any system of government that promotes and overspends on wealth creation and defence. Through appeals to reason for more reflection on where society could go? Reasoning for long term solutions to social problems, which could involve a large number of complex interdependent actons, will always struggle against the quick fix mindset which would prefer to follow the rainbow to that pot of gold at the other end. Yet there are possibilities - the age old practice of recycling of rubbish is easily extended to recycling of technology: the problem lies in the claims to its profit.
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