In a list of five things I hate, early mornings and stationary bikes would be fighting for the top slot (followed by cucumber, roller-coasters and colours running in the wash!), but my love of doing things that “normal” people think are “crazy” is so far off the top of the Things I Hate scale that I didn’t even flinch before volunteering to be in the pedal-powered house experiment organised by Bang Goes The Theory.
The deal was to spend a whole weekend at the Bang studios pedalling a bike connected to a Heath Robinson-esque generator that had been fashioned from an electric scooter motor, which in turn was connected to a long cable that ran through a hole in the wall to a rather nice four-bedroom family home next door. In return we’d get lunch and a free T-shirt.
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Used with permission
Cyclists preparing for the off.
Thankfully, I wasn’t the only person who thought this offer almost too good to be true and on a bright Saturday morning in September, a crowd of cyclists gathered outside the Bang studio, without a bike in sight. Cyclists are funny about their bikes; bicycles are individually built after having spent hours drooling over component catalogues and there is a very intimate relationship between the two. You enjoy the sunshine together and you suffer the rain and snow, always working as a team. It’s like a marriage, you go through the ups and downs together, but most importantly you remain faithful. It’s polite to covet your neighbour’s bike but never, ever ride another bike, if yours finds out it will sulk and you’ll be lucky if your gears ever change smoothly again!
So, while our carbon steeds were hanging in the garage and missing out on their weekend outing, we would be on hybrid bikes on turbo trainers – hybrids, the shame of it! Luckily, with the studio being tucked away miles from anywhere, our bikes should never find out that we betrayed them.
It’s always interesting seeing TV programmes being made. You’ll see television shows in a new light when you realise the amount of time and number of people involved. There were over 150 people there all weekend – just to make a one hour show!
The technical guys had spent 5 days setting up the 79 bikes but Saturday was the first opportunity for proper testing which was done in between bits of rehearsal and filming. Every bike was tested individually and in groups. One person managed to pull a wheelie and fall off, luckily only damaging his pride!
On Saturday afternoon the big moment came – we were to test powering the house. Someone threw the switch and we felt the resistance increase, and then, gradually, more appliances were turned on in the house. The lights were on, and the TV, and we’d boiled the kettle – WOOO HOOO! And then the ultimate test, the power shower – a cheer went up – WE CAN DO IT – WE CAN POWER THE HOUSE!
But that was only 20 minutes... and the family will need power all day!
After a sizeable helping of food, rest and sleep we were back in the studio on Sunday morning, this time for the real thing. The peloton had swelled slightly and we were expecting reinforcements from London a couple of hours into the proceedings.
We could see inside the house via the cameras which were projected on a big screen. Luckily, the family had a bit of a lie in and a long breakfast meaning we had a gentle warm up powering just the fridge with a couple of sprints to boil the kettle and make toast. We got quite anxious when Mum picked up the shower gel, but luckily she put it down again. Soon though, it was quite clear Dad was about to have a shower (although I’m sure that bit of footage will be cut from the show!). Right on cue, our reinforcements arrived and with the additional fresh legs joining in we managed to sustain enough power for a 5 minute shower.
Unfortunately, I had to leave after lunch (but I had put in extra effort in the morning!) so I’ll have to wait for the show to be broadcast to find out how the rest of the day went. I was quite tired and I expect there were lots of sore legs on Monday morning!
Whilst the others were still pedalling, I put in a load of washing and then munched my way through a couple of bars of chocolate, made dinner and wrote up the blog.
Right, just time to hang out the washing… my free red T-shirt and - GRRRRR! - some now pink knickers! Bang gang – for the next series, please can you investigate why colours run in the wash - and how come the red dye will wash into the whites but not out again?
Behind the scenes images
Getting ready to go.
Used with permission
Industrial surroundings.
All set up and ready to go nowhere.
Used with permission
Last minute adjustments.
Almost time to switch on the Human Power Station.
Used with permission
Making electricity.
This power station needs a tea break.
Used with permission
Although the cycling was the main part, other jobs needed to be done too.
This was where the generated electricity was supplied to the house.
Used with permission
A closer view of the wiring.
Cyclists relaxing before they're recalled for duty.
BBC
Without this contraption, the family wouldn't have had any electricity.
The board showing how many cyclists it would take to run each device.
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Comments on: "Biker trove"
e-the-real has started a thread discussing Biker trove.
So BBC finally tested this concept, of which I'd thought of, too.
Q. How did it compare economically with 'regular' power?
Comment: I know most western leisure cyclists detest stationery bike cycling. But would it be a good idea if, say, a gym had it's stationery cycles wired into generators which then wired back into the 'grid'? Also since assured power generation would probably be infeasible in this case, what if the users of this gym, say, who wanted to lose weight, for example, were offered rebate or discount on their gym fees equal to the value of the power they generated?
Do you this it makes good economic, ecological as well as commercial sense? I'm considering implementing this as a business idea but I'm not an entrepreneur and have zero experience starting a business. I am also held back by familial responsibilities.
Education
Really well written article.I was captivated through your unique piece of writing which as it contained the elements of initial interests and fascination.
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Re: Comments on: "Biker trove"
It would be better if the gym simply closed down so that people could go on a bike ride from home instead of driving to the gym.
They would hardly generate any power, and in the process of generating the little that they do, they'd get soaked with sweat and end up using a hundred times as much power just in having a shower afterwards. If you cycle outside, there are only a few days of the year when there's any danger of sweating.
It might work if you turn it into a game, using the electricity generated to give electric shocks to the slackers. That would generate a lot of publicity and drive people to lose weight more effectively than in a normal gym. But seriously, you say you aren't an entrepreneur, so you'd likely lose your shirt if you tried to run a gym.
Re: Comments on: "Biker trove"
Four hours cycling would generate about 1kWh. You should be able to look up the proces for your energy supplier to estimate what they might pay you for that (hint: less than they charge you for that amount, they have to make a profit).
George
Re: Comments on: "Biker trove"
The power company has tricks to creating electricity. They do not want you making electricity and feeding it back.
For one their transformers are designed as step down transformers. In order to actually supply power back to the power company, you would have to create a much higher voltage, and this would have to be timed to compensate for the individual transformer and hertz signal from the power company. Or it would not help. It might also prove to be a danger to other homeowners on the same secondary line from the transformer.
So what they do is just throw away the power, that home owners generates, and charge them less. It is ridiculous that they cannot discuss the actuality.
The high tension lines some of them only carry a few amps at those crazy Tesla voltages. It is rather easy to create a small amount of amperage at those voltages, and make a million or two million watts. Watts equal volts times amps. So if your output is 140 thousand volts, less then the output from a high performance, ignition system for a race car or race boat. You only need about 11 amps to get 1.5 million watts.
And then it is stepped down, by a system that draws the current through the system with a very long length of wire, that the transformer taps are spaced along, to use the capacitance in the wire feeding them.
Testla could have made the earth glow, from his New York laboratory and not use an ounce of fuel. We have free power. It is just a dangerous animal. Just like fire, once you start it you may not be able to just shut it off.
The reason why we don't all have a self powering generator in our basement is because almost no one is brave enough to play with electricity. So most never learn how it is and can be generated. Only a handful of individuals on earth understand electricity totally.
Right now the cost of electricity is the manpower up keeping power lines and power stations.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
Re: Comments on: "Biker trove"
In this country, people are doing just that and there is a move to make it more widespread.
Since you are connected to the secondary, the same transformer acts as a step up from you to them.
The actuality is that the power one homeowner puts back into his supply passes primarily to other users on the same sub-station and so reduces the current taken from the main grid by that station.
Rubbish, the voltage ratio is simply the ratio of the number of turns in the transformer. For example if the turns ratio is 10:1, 2300V in gives you 230V out and a load of 10A on the secondary takes 1A from the primary, 23kW either side.
Running it in reverse, if you put 230V into the secondary, you get 2300V out of the primary and similarly the secondary current will be 10 times what you draw from the primary.
Try winding your own transformer and make the measurements, it's really quite simple.
George
Re: Comments on: "Biker trove"
George they space the transformers a certain distance apart along the run of the primary from a substation, for optimum use and safety of the capacitance in the primary wire.
I don't know how you got the subject started on winding transformers. I do that myself though, all the time. Magnets, transformers. I definitely understand step down transformer. Buck, boost, coils, you name it.
I had mentioned the step down transformer earlier, in that post. I was adding that there is a geometry of the primary wire, and the placement of the step down transformers.
But when you go to send power back to the primary. It is not as easy as it sounds. You have to time the transformer, as it ages or heats, it will probably cause different timing. You will also more then likely have to over volt the secondary. Because the secondary is not ideally suited for stepping up the voltage. Most transformers do not do well stepping up voltage, when they are designed for stepping down voltage. And rarely are you going to see a 10/1 or 20/1 step up transformer that is efficient. You almost need a coil to do that.
This is not something I would want next door connected to the secondary of my step down transformer from the power company. These home systems are going to have to over volt, out of sinc, ahead of the power companies signal. Just to cause any effect even to the house next door. Consider that suddenly these systems will shut off, and not be generating. Your lights and equipment if you live next door, will be flickering and browning out. It is a sad idea. A very dangerous idea.
I know they throw the power away right now. It is a comedy to us.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
Re: Comments on: "Biker trove"
Wire capacitance is tiny William, far too small to be of any significance at power line frequencies. Spacing has much more to do with arcing distances.
You started talking about step-down transformers as if they always reduced the voltage regardless of how they are wired. If you feed power back into the secondary of a step-down, it gives you a higher voltage on the primary than you put in. It means that aspect is not a problem for householders feeding power back into the grid.
In that case there needn't be a disagreement.
Phasing of the power fed back obviously has to be matched carefully to the source but that isn't too difficult with modern technology. It would have been unrealistic in the old days of mechanical governers! The generating plants can be up to 5MW and have to be accredited and certified to meet all the technical requirements you are highlighting.
In principle, they do equally well either way, that was the point. The step up or down of the EMF is determined only by the turns ratio. However, you are right that there will be efficiency losses both ways and if the ratio is altered to compensate for that, it will make the efficiency on the return path poorer. That may have been what you meant but it didn't read that way.
However, were not just talking about sticking the output of a little generator back into your mains plug. Have a look at this site for example
The source impedance will be no worse than the original line. In practical terms, this is a technology that has been around for many years and is now sufficiently well proven to be made more widespread.
Since there are no separate wires going back to the source station, there is no way to "throw the power away", the only comedy involved is the nonsense you talk at times.
George
Re: Comments on: "Biker trove"
George you would need to bring the timing of the primary down to the house. How are you going to do that? Because there is a time delay within the transformer. The time it takes to create the magnetic field to connect the two coils.
There is a timing delay between the primary and the secondary within the transformer. In other words the primary, if you are using a two channel oscilloscope will show the primary light up before the secondary does, across the horizontal grids.
So if you go to "back feed" this transformer as you are calling it. You cannot because it is being fed by the primary that is ahead of the secondary in the timing of the cycles.
If you try to over volt the secondary, you will have to create a spike that is ahead of the primary, not to mention how far ahead of the secondary it would have be, in time.
That is just talk with no knowledge of electricity that you can back feed on a secondary. You would have to isolate the transformer, and turn the low voltage side into a primary. Otherwise you will not do anything good.
This is why these projects never amount to much. Because no one has a clue as to what is actually happening.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
Re: Comments on: "Biker trove"
There is a phase shift, close to 90 degrees, between the voltage and current, but that occurs in both primary and secondary so the voltages are close to being in phase. What is called "power factor correction" is a well known technique and the equipment I design has to meet the international standards.
What is needed is to apply the voltage to the secondary such that the current flowing back into the transformer is in phase with the secondary voltage. There are many ways to achieve that but for example a phase-locked loop in the controller would be adequate.
This methods are no different to the way that all the generating stations around the country feed onto the grid, just on a smaller scale.
That is how it has been done ever since the grid was invented. There were always (possibly apocryphal) stories of guys throwing the switch to connect a station to the grid when out of phase and "nearly taking the generator of its mountings" but for many years they have been electronically controlled and it is not a problem.
George
Re: Comments on: "Biker trove"
The oscilloscope will show that their is a timing difference. The oscilloscope is showing you the delay in voltage timing. It is substantial when you are talking about AC current. The delay is not in favor of back feeding.
When you have a team of men monitoring power output and hertz. You could cogeneration. I would not recommend it. But to leave it to a machine. Not a good idea. To do it on your block just plain crazy.
I am sure they were throwing the power away at one time. Lilco basically said you cannot back feed. But they were ordered or agreed to pay anyone generating electricity anyway.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
Re: Comments on: "Biker trove"
It's actually pretty trivial using a phase-locked loop William.
That is not an option they have. As I said, there is only one cable system so they don't get the power back, they just find the grid is taking less from their generators. If you can't see that, I'll show you how you can model it in DC with a couple of batteries and three bulbs.
Well they would, wouldn't they, they didn't want to see their profits cut. That's why it takes legislation to force it through. It's just business.
George
Re: Comments on: "Biker trove"
Business is not the enemy. That is what government wants you to believe. Government plays the rich against the poor. Right now the rich, and the poor, should be shot, for being out smarted by the government.
The private electric companies ran leaner, gave better service, for less. Because they are goal oriented. When government steps in, you end up with nuclear power plants. Rube Goldberg would puke if he saw them, or think the plants were built to honor him.
The people scream they cannot afford to live, the government squeezes the electric company and makes them look fat. It takes everyone's mind off of taxation.
http://www.rockwelder.com/government/govelectric.JPG
Here in America.
Company run electric in 1953 was paying twenty cents on every dollar spent by the consumer to the government as taxes.
The rates were strictly controlled by those elected to represent you.
Power had to be distributed equally no preferences.
It kept the spirit of free enterprise alive.
Government power pays little or no taxes.
Government is exempt from price regulations.
Government power goes first to certain favored groups.
Government power is a step forward to a monopoly and socialism.
Who are you going to get to legislate those bums George?
The government is the secret Monopoly, right in front of us.
George lets say everyone goes and buys these bike or solar generators right. They spend money, taxes are collected.
The new raise in the price of electric power, due to decreased demands and decreased revenue needed to aid the aging system and prepare it for the home generator, is almost palatable. Taxes are collected. By the time you are done, the guy just paying the man his ransom, and not falling for these schemes is the happy winner.
He probably owns the controlling interest in the home generator company. Ha-ha. And doesn't want one.
But this gutsy entrepreneur is only doing it because he cannot round up enough individuals who are not afraid to communicate about our situation.
I find these guys, and they are not the enemy. If I can round up enough individuals they will stand up to anything. The problem is I cannot round up sane intelligent individuals.
Do the math George, where is our 20 percent decrease, from taxes that do not need to be collected?
Government is hungrier then those horror show living dead beasts. And in all actuality today I am sure the private power companies pay more then twenty percent taxes.
This below is hard scientific proof that I am not the only one that thinks this way. Ha-ha.
http://www.Rockwelder.com/WMV/GML.wmv
George do rich people go to socialized doctors? Do rich people take garbage from socialized systems? Heck no, they hire a barrister to shield them from total failure.
In America one of our God given rights, in fact an old original part of English laws, changed by King William III, I believe. Was that "You have the right to protect your fortune"
Now why would you promote government, with a terrible track record. Over the private sector, the same private sector, that wants to hire the private sector? But they hate, government services.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
Re: Comments on: "Biker trove"
I didn't say it was , just that it is understandable that they would want to argue the case to preserve their profits. When they question the safety of such systems, you have to consider whether their evidence is fair and unbiased. The fact is that approved and certified technology is readily available.
George
Re: Comments on: "Biker trove"
Ok so now we are only going to feed only, four or eight houses with power? Depending on where you are.
And we are going to have to create a wave ahead of the secondary being energized by the primary or it will be to late to save the primary power. It will have to be of higher voltage. So you will get a ghost wave. On an oscilloscope.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
Re: Comments on: "Biker trove"
It can vary from a household installing solar panels that might push half a house worth back on a sunny day to and off-shore wind farm beig discussed at the moment that can power 750,000 houses.
Nope, the sum of two sine waves at the same frequency is a sine wave.
George
Re: Comments on: "Biker trove"
I am saying you cannot boost power to a sine wave, to take the load off the Transformer primary, feeding the secondary, of the system you are boosting. Without being ahead of the frequency. That is why they dump the power the homeowners are creating.
You have to understand on a hot summer day, with four or eight houses hooked up to the secondary of a transformer. Your little one house system, is going to be trying to feed a load of as much as 600 amps, by itslef.
No way are you going to do it. And when you partially slightly ahead of the frequency, partially energize the induction loads. You may actually cause more amperage to be needed from the power company.
This is well documented AC law, and shows again that modern scientists are just talking and selling nonsense. This is sillier then global warming.
We have perpetual motion. The universe runs on it.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
Re: Comments on: "Biker trove"
Hi William,
I'll answer a later point first as the logic is clearer:
Nope, if the local generator system pushes just 1 amp back into the line shared by those four houses, all that happens is that the load on the transformer drops to 599 amps.
Sorry William, the maximum efficiency occurs when the current is in phase with the voltage, that is "AC Law" as you put it later. To be precise, the efficiency is related to the cosine of the phase angle. Maintaining the phase is not difficult and power factor legislation requires that it is within certain tolerances to avoid creating a reactive component. Any system sold would have to be certified to that legislation.
There is only one line involved so obviously the grid generator companies have no way to "dump" the power. If there was a separate independent back-feed cable system it would be possible but there isn't, all they know is that the load has dropped by 1A and there's nothing they can do about it.
No William, your comments above are clueless rubbish.
George
Re: Comments on: "Biker trove"
If you do not send a preemptive spike into the line before the primary in the transformer is slowed and hindered by the load on the secondary.
It will not help the load on the primary. When your little one house generator tries to feed a 600 amp load, it will die. So it has to feed after the secondary does or it would overload.
It cannot supply power to a 600 amp load. No doubt about it. So the transformer is going to pop the 600 amp load for you. Until the voltage is to a point where your system will only be supplying a few volts and a few amps. Once it can achieve a slightly higher voltage then the secondary.
In fact if it cannot achieve a slightly higher voltage then the secondary early on in the cycle. It will cause the transformer secondary to overvolt at the end of the cycle. That first draw of the secondary on the primary, is going to load the transformer, because it is a capacitor. The magnetic field will be charged heavily to create that 600 amps, and will have to dissipate somewhere. If you add power after that initial charge, it will cause an over volt at the end of the cycle.
In my opinion and experts opinions, it will be to little, to late to help. You claimed some conspiracy by big power companies wanted to keep the little guy from generating power. That is paranoia.
Our power company said look, the cost is not in making electricity, rather up keeping the system. If the government says we have to charge these people with a home generator less if they pump some back, so be it, we cannot seem to get representatives to do their jobs.
In the end the government will have to allow us to let the system run down, and collapse. At that point we will get a raise anyway. Burdening the people paying for electricity straight up even more.
Rewarding those for endangering their neighbors.
[Moderator: please refrain from making unnecessary personal comments] George, instead of helping individuals to understand electricity so they could take part in it. Build and maintain their own home generating systems that self generate. You are furthering the chaos and attacking the people who are working hard to bring you power. Risking their lives, because you and most others are afraid to understand electricity.
It is free as I proved to you.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
Re: Comments on: "Biker trove"
Spikes are not permitted and are dangerous to most equipment. All the products we design have EMC filters to eliminate them. Power waveforms are sine waves.
I have reinstated the previous quotes. This time try reading what I write instead of responding to your own imaginings.
ROFLMAO, no William, that is what you claimed, you said they dumped the power!
We have adverts on TV selling systems and grants from the government to encourage take-up. It is mainstream stuff over here.
All I'm doing is telling what is on the TV adverts William.
All you proved is that you cannot even analyse the power transfers in the simplest RC circuit. Go back to the relevant thread and I'll straighten out your errors.
George
Re: Comments on: "Biker trove"
George you keep claiming that the input of one amp into the secondary is going to take the load off the primary. It won't.
The problem is when are you going to send this one amp? It will have to be after the power company sends the 599 amps. Or your home generator will need a supply capable of outputting 600 amps. If you let the transformer pop the 600 amp load, you are to late to help the primary. The primary feeds the 600 amp load a good portion of the cycle before you are going to help. You can only send it when the load is down to one amp. The primary is charging in the opposite direction by then. You might cost them power.
It is like in a building that installs isolation transformers for electronics. Even though they tie one leg of the output to neutral. You will still get voltage across the hot from the isolation transformer and the power company 120 volt line. It is just the phase angle difference created by the transformer.
By the time the secondary in a transformer is fed, it is too late to help the primary. Even if you back feed an amp, the primary will still need the same amount of power to send the pulse down the primary.
That primary will have to carry the same power, as it always did. I know the game. Through laws and law makers misunderstandings, you can get these things approved. My power company was honest and said we will eat the loss, but we will not let you endanger our customers. So they just metered the output and gave the customer a credit.
Recently I had a misunderstanding about a split capacitor motor and a shaded pole motor. But if you look at the principles of the capacitor motor or permanent split capacitor motor. You will see that the capacitor creates a phase 90 degrees out of phase with the other coil in the motor.
A transformer is also a capacitor and must charge to conduct power across the coil. By the time the magnetic field is generated, the primary has done most of the work. And needed every bit of the power it always sends out to pop the heavy load.
It won't save the power company anything.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
Re: Comments on: "Biker trove"
I didn't say it would elinimate the load entirely, you gave the example of four houses taking 600A. I said that if one house put 1A back into the line, the load on the secondary would be reduced to 599A. That is seen as a reduced load on the primary not because current is put back but because less is taken.
In fact, if more than 600A was put in, it would go back through the transformer but that's another matter.
It needs to be fed in simultaneously to within better than a thousandth of a second. That's what a phase-locked loop does.
Think of the moment when the feed from the grid is at its highest voltage. You can build a little DC circuit to simulate what needs to be done at that time like this.
If you use your 1.5V cells, the highest is simulated as 3V and the slightly higher voltage you back feed is the 4.5V on the right hand side. I've shown the meter reading 0.6A but that will depend on the bulbs of course. All five should be 3V bulbs and of the same wattage. The one in the back feed is deliberately under-run.
When you close the switch, the current taken from the main battery should drop by about 12 to 18%. The 3V battery on the left represents the local transformer secondary.
I've used a higher back-feed voltage and an indicator bulb just to illustrate the operation but in real life the extra bulb wouldn't be there, you just feed back as much current as you want at the line voltage.
No, the trick is that you feed back a current that is proportional to the main line. For example if your system could feed 6A when the grid is supplying 594A, you feed 1A when it is supplying 99A, 2A when it supplies 198A and so on. When they feed nothing, you feed nothing and all that happens at your 60Hz. Both waveforms are sine waves.
A capacitor draws a current that is 90 degrees ahead of the voltage. A coil draws a current that is 90 degrees behind the voltage. Use the right values and the currents cancel out. That is called "power factor correction" and is what I was saying several posts back. The products I design have to comply with regulations on that.
If it is done correctly, they can't tell the difference between a back feed and someone switching a light off.
George
Re: Comments on: "Biker trove"
As you load a transformer, you will see a phase shift in time. It takes longer for that first 600 amp load to get through, then the next cycles, 560 amp load. The phase shifts in time. How are you going to sense this and compensate for the transformers lag? Your one amp into a 600 amp load is not going to be able to bring it to full voltage. So you will not be supplying the wattage.
On an oscilloscope you might even lose lock, on a your signal, while starting an induction load. That is how far off the predesignated time coordinates, you may be.
The power company will have to create the same power, maintain the same system, and more then likely for safety and convenience dump the power from homeowners. That is what they did here. They did not even care about giving them back some money. They just did not want the danger of back feeding for no benefit to them. It endangers the workers, it endangers everyone.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
Re: Comments on: "Biker trove"
Don't confuse startup transients with steady-state phase shifts. As I said, the running waveforms are sine waves and the components are linear so phase matching works fine.
Again, the schemes only contribute to the supply, they are not trying to power the whole country. The method is exactly the same as the way all the major power stations share the load but just on a very much smaller scale.
That is the transient, not a steady shift.
Sorry William, that is not physically possible. Build the lamp circuit simulation I showed you and then see if you can figure a way to "dump" the current going from the right-hand battery (via the lamp marked "FB") into the right-most of the set of four houses (labelled "H4") and replace it with current from the left-hand battery using only something inserted where the "?" is shown. Those are the only connections available at the main generating station. It should become obvious to you that it can't be done.
Rubbish, it's what every power station in the country that is connected to the national grid already does.
George
Re: Comments on: "Biker trove"
A national grid is not getting hit with large surges. It is steady change if one occurs.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
Re: Comments on: "Biker trove"
If I switch on the kettle, it gets hit with a demand for an extra 10 amps or so but the source impedance is so low, the voltage drop is negligible. The same is true in the circuit I drew:
Back feed demonstration.
Use a 6V car battery on the left and a 9V torch battery on the right. Switching off say H2 will show up as a change of current on the meter but will make only a tiny difference to the voltage across H1 etc.. The FB lamp still sees nearly the same 3V across it so takes the same current from the torch battery.
That is the key for a home generator too, it would push back the current it wants to deliver and the generating station's load is a little lower than it would have been but the grid still copes with any demand surges.
Try it out William. You can put another ammeter in series with the right hand battery, a voltmeter at the point marked "?" and a switch in series with H1. You are perfectly capable of wiring that up.
You have however ignored the original point of the drawing. Do you understand that it is not possible to put something at the point marked "?" which can throw away the current supplied by the torch battery. What happens if the household system gets the phasing wrong is that their generator becomes a motor and take off like a bat out of hell. The grid and other customers would hardly notice.
George
Re: Comments on: "Biker trove"
I do get that you can take a little load off the secondary.
I don't see why the power company would want it. Making power is not their problem. Up keeping the system is. They cannot afford to upkeep the system. Here on Long Island they tried to give us a nuclear plant, that would have raised our rates 600 percent. Most of the increase would have went to grid maintenance. But they needed the nuclear plant to justify the cost increase.
When they cancelled the nuclear plant, our rates went down. Ha-ha.
You will see those that buy into these schemes will be sorry they did. It has happened here so many times now, with solar power schemes, that most don't want any part of it. Solar power cells have been around for almost one hundred years. It is just a sick game.
George on Long Island where Republic Aircraft built the electric titanium Hurrier. We know electricity generation is politics not science. You cannot even find a record of that plane anymore. Yet we used to go to air shows to see it. My family worked at the plant where it was built.
The no bombing range limitation of the plane, and the 72 hour flying capability limited by the pilots ability to stay awake. Made it my favorite. It was cancelled because other fuel planes went faster that year.
And because there were some problems with how the pressure was being created. They were getting static charge build up from compression of the air in the plane. In certain heat and humidity conditions.
Believe it or not on very hot days, in very high humidity you can get very powerful static charges to build up, when dealing with vacuums and pressure, creating high velocity air.
These effects could result in lightning from the plane, while it was hovering. A bolt like that could detonate asphalt. But there were solutions for it. However since other planes went faster, it was not bought or put into production.
So you can say what you like, we know. I am just having a problem creating free power with small low voltage devices that kids can study.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
Re: Comments on: "Biker trove"
Excellent, that's all there is to it, nothing fancy.
They don't, they lose a little income but it's a drop in the ocean for them. The situation is that for a long time, some small companies that used a lot of power found it cheaper to have their own power plant rather than buy power from the grid suppliers. They usually have excess capacity to allow for growth so it makes sense for them to contribute back what the don't use themselves and it is fair that they should be paid for it.
Medium term, the governments want to encourage it because it will reduce their reliance on other countries, and long term as oil and gas reserves reduce and it becomes more difficult to extract, the cost will rise. We have maybe a century or two to convert to other sources but it is a long term task.
If you read my previous posts more carefully, you can learn why that is for the specific tests with capacitors that you are trying.
George
Re: Comments on: "Biker trove"
When I was competing in the Long Island Science congress, I met a young man I believe he was Korean. His fathers company made solar cells. And they output 10 volts a piece. Each 1" by 1" cell could power a motor with a fan blade on it, vigorously, with dim auditorium lighting.
At this time in strong sunlight, the Radio Shack solar cells had to be chained together and perhaps paralleled, to get a motor to turn like that. You probably needed about 36 square inches of surface to duplicate this one cell.
I was 12 or 13 at the time. Looking back I wish I spent more time talking to him. But at the time, I thought solar power was extremely silly. I had no idea where we were heading. Ha-ha. I kind of shrugged it off, and said we have free power. But I wish I had one of those cells today just to check it out.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
Re: Comments on: "Biker trove"
The trick would be to find a low power motor. Although the photovoltaic effect had been known since the 1800's, the first semiconductor cells were made in 1954 and had about 4% efficiency. That is, the amount of electrical power you got from the cell was 4% of the light power illuminating it.
That rose to around 14% by 1960, 20% in 1985, 30% in 1994 and currently they are pushing 40%.
There's a timeline in PDF here for example.
George
Re: Comments on: "Biker trove"
The original Selenium Cells built in the late thirties and early forties, were getting very good outputs.
In average direct sunlight a Selenium cell measuring about 3/4" by about 2" was outputting about 0.118 watts.
That is pretty good.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
Re: Comments on: "Biker trove"
From History of Photovoltaic Cells:
"The effect was first studied in solids, such as selenium, by Heinrich Hertz in the 1870s. Soon afterward, selenium photovoltaic cells were converting light to electricity at one percent to two percent efficiency."
Modern selenium devices are 3 to 3.5% efficient. Sunlight at ground level is around 1000W per square metre or about 0.65W over that size of cell. The figure you quote would be around 18% so I think you have slipped a decimal somewhere, 1.8% would be about right.
The key point of course that energy is still conserved, the efficiency is always less than 100% and the unconverted light that isn't reflected simply heats the cell.
George
Re: Comments on: "Biker trove"
No that is what they were outputting in the late thirties and early forties.
At just 80 foot candles, each cell output 16 micro watts.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
Re: Comments on: "Biker trove"
You can play around with the illumination and cell size but the efficiency is limited by the material. Selenium gave a couple of percent in the early days and less than 4% with decades of refinement that are mean they are nearing the theoretical limit.
If you want to claim they achieved more, you need to show me some evidence, datasheets or something.
George