2.2 Myth?

My name is Karen Schumann. I'm a chancery master. I was a barrister in independent practise. And unusually, because most people are a part-time judge before they take up a full-time appointment, I went straight from full-time barristering to full-time judging.

My name's Victoria McLeod, and I'm currently a Queen's Bench master in the high court in London. I began life after school studying psychology, and I did research after university in how the human brain perceives things in three dimensions. So I did a doctorate in psychology.

But I always wanted to ultimately end up being a lawyer. So I qualified as a barrister, and I practised as a barrister in general common law for several years, from I think 1995 till 2010, when I was lucky enough to be appointed as a full-time judge in the Queen's Bench division in the high court.

My name is Rehana Popal. I'm a barrister. I practise at 33 Bedford Row Chambers. My practise is quite wide ranging, but it predominantly encompasses public law, and within that, immigration asylum, human rights.

It came as quite a surprise to me when I qualified, to find out that I was the first-ever Afghan female to qualify. It wasn't something that I set out to do. It just happened. That wasn't the goal or the objective.

Being in my position, I think, A: I realise how much more we have to do for inclusion and diversity, just generally along the bar. But also, I have faced other challenges in my day-to-day, whether or not that's discrimination from a client because they want, for example, a white male barrister.

In terms of my experiences as a woman barrister, I felt that entering the legal profession was very supportive, actually. Inevitably, many of the people, the experienced people I met were men. And they were incredibly supportive for me. So I had a really positive start to practise. So as a woman, I didn't see any of the problems that I am aware do happen in practise.

I say that because I chair the Equality, Diversity, and Inclusion Committee at Lincoln's Inn. So I do hear horror stories from other women. I would say that my experiences changed when I was pregnant with my first child. The experiences being pregnant as a woman barrister, I think, were regrettable with some of the support staff, because they made judgments about me. And they were matters for me or matters for my husband and I and not for clerks to make decisions on my behalf.

And so that was the first time that I really experienced or obviously experienced sexism in practise. I certainly have never experienced it from any judge or from any colleague.

I'm kind of interesting in that I wasn't always a woman barrister, in the sense that I started my career, as far as everyone else was concerned, a male barrister and actually spent a couple of years before transitioning. So I spent most of my life, as far as the world was concerned, as a woman barrister. But actually very, very early on, I wasn't. So I've had the interesting experience of at least appearing to be both at various times.

Experience of, certainly as a woman barrister, certainly occasions-- this is way back when. I hope it's changed. I don't know if it has. I've haven't been a woman barrister for years. I've been a judge.

But certainly sometimes not really being heard. I mean, sometimes I would say something, and it was as if I haven't said it, which could be frustrating. But actually, mostly, I think because the bar is largely self-employed, and certainly in my day, it was virtually all self-employed, I think there is more opportunity to sort of make your own way.

Being dyslexic, it's been incredibly challenging at times. It was very challenging during universities. So throughout studying my undergrad, postgraduate, and particularly bar school, the BPTC, the Bar Professional Training Course, at that time what it was when I was studying, isn't set up for those who are dyslexic.

And there's a really big misconception about dyslexia. People forget that it's not the case of you're not clever enough, or you're not bright, or anything of that nature. It's rather the way you think is slightly different. Now, I believe, and in my practise, I believe that's given me a strategic advantage. I'm able to look at things from a wholly different angle that actually the vast majority of people who aren't dyslexic don't necessarily see.

Anyone who's got the privilege of making decisions is bound to be disliked. Like all judges, one gets abuse. One gets emails. One gets social media stuff, even though I'm not active in social media. But there's stuff out there. All judges get that. Women judges get it, I think, more. And if you happen to be trans and a woman judge, you get the full set.

In terms of whether the profession is changing as a result of increasing attention to diversity, yes, because there is more equality in terms of, if one just looks at gender alone, there is more equality with people entering the profession. But I don't think that the profession is changing fast enough thereafter. There are still barriers, particularly for women and from anyone from a minority ethnic background, to not only getting a foot on the career ladder at the bar but having a free choice on the subject areas they practise in. And then a particular problem is retention. And all of that is an issue because in the main, but not wholly, the judiciary is drawn from the bar.

Though it takes years for a person to become a senior member of the bar, so going from a junior barrister to when you take silk, maybe 15, 20 years, to when you're called to the bench, maybe 10 years thereafter, that progress takes time. And it's important that we recruit and retain people that are reflective of the community and society that it represents. Because when they don't represent the community and society, there's a sense of disjointedness, particularly when it had comes to how people feel about the profession.

Diversity's increasing gradually. I mean the profession is obviously a big word. Depends on which bit of profession you're talking about. So for example, the Institute of Paralegals is the most diverse branch of the legal profession. Solicitors, very diverse. The bar, I think, less, and the judiciary even less. And the senior judiciary, still less again.

So for example, and by Jove, don't they know it, many judges now know a trans judge, which they might not have known otherwise. So they hopefully will find it harder, and I'm sure they don't, to harbour certain sorts of prejudice that might have been there in ignorance of actually knowing someone. And that, I think, must go for all sorts of other groups, too. It can blow stereotypes.

Suppose I would make three points in relation to why it is important. One, I firmly believe that the legal profession should reflect society. Secondly, you should bring in people with different perspectives and backgrounds. And thirdly, you should open up the experiences that that cohort of people have. Because ultimately, it makes us a better decision maker.

And that doesn't just mean a judge. It means a lawyer acting on a case. And I think that if you have a more diverse and inclusive legal profession, then you have a greater legitimation for that legal profession. You have more public confidence. Because otherwise, you risk alienation.

So I think it is vital in any modern society that you have as diverse a legal profession as possible. And diversity does not mean that you water down the qualities and values of that legal profession. It only adds to them.

My name is Rehana Popal. I'm a barrister. And I practise at 33 Bedford Row Chambers. My practise is quite wide-ranging, but it predominately encompasses public law, and within that, immigration asylum, human rights.

My name is Leslie Thomas. I'm a Queen's Counsel. That means that I am a senior barrister.

I've been practicing for about 30 years. I practise in the field of human rights, actions against the state, actions against the police, some of the civil litigation. I'm a former Head of Chambers at one of the largest sets of chambers. Set of chambers is an office where barristers work. I'm now just practicing. I'm also a Professor of Law at Gresham College and a Visiting Professor of Law at University of London, Goldsmiths College.

The reason why I decided to enter the legal profession at that point as a child wasn't a sense of I need to justice or safeguard other people. It was from watching a TV show. That my brother walks into the living room. My brother was watching a show.

And I said, who are these people who wear wigs and standing in court and talk? And he said, barristers. I was like, OK, great. That's what I'm going to do when I grow up.

I think the attraction specifically to immigration comes from my own background, having that immigrant background. And it resonated with me. And just always having that kind of broader international human rights interest. And I think it was kind of the mixture of my background being here and that general interest in politics that kind of all folded into my immigration interest.

I decided to enter the legal profession for two main reasons. When I was at school, we had a really inspirational sociology teacher, who encouraged me to think outside the box. And I wanted to do something where I could use my mind.

The second reason why I decided to enter the profession was due to an unfortunate experience that I had when I was about 14, 15 years old. I was walking home from school one afternoon. I was in school uniform.

And I was stopped by a number of police officers, who decided to do a random search on me for no good reason. When I asked the officers why they wanted to search me, I was told simply to shut up, turn out my pockets, and put up with it. I'll never forget that day.

I thought to myself, this is unfair, unjust. I thought I was randomly picked up for no good reason. And I thought, perhaps I could do something to redress the balance and use the negative energy I had from that situation and turn it into something positive. So I decided that I wanted to become an advocate, a barrister, one of those lawyers who appears in court and argues for the rights of others.

So when I qualified, I didn't know at the time that I was going to be the first ever Afghan female to qualify in England and Wales. It wasn't an objective that I set out to do. It just happened by default.

I want to say a little bit about being in particular a black barrister at the bar in England and Wales. It's not easy. There have been times when I have experienced racism and discrimination.

Let me give you a couple of examples. I remember on one occasion I was entering the court building. And there was security there. And I stood in line and took my turn.

And I remember other barristers, white barristers, who were dressed just like me. The only difference between me and them was the colour of our skin. They were being waved through by the security guards, and I wasn't.

And I couldn't understand that. And when I got to the security guard, and I asked why they didn't wait their turn, I was effectively told that let them do their job. And I was searched even more thoroughly than they were. So that's one experience.

The second thing is, it's the assumptions people make about you. Oftentimes, these assumptions are unconscious assumptions. So I know many black lawyers who go into court. And they're assumed to be anyone other than the lawyer. So in my time, I've been assumed to be the defendant, the defendant's brother, the defendant's father, the clerk, or, perhaps, a friend.

My experiences whilst being at the bar so far is, it's all been on the whole very positive. But there have been times when I have felt discrimination. That predominantly comes from clients who, perhaps, pick. "Oh, I've wanted white male barristers," as opposed to young females or those who are ethnic minority. And that's been one of the challenges that I faced.

My client wanted a white male barrister because that client thought the judge is probably going to be a white male barrister, so they're probably more likely to understand one another. Now, that comes from an ignorant point of view I fully accept. But also, that's a failure of our judicial system or our legal system.

Because the reality is, our judiciary is not diversified. And that is the perception that she had of what a barrister needs to look like. And that is incorrect.

Diversity in a legal profession is important for a number of reasons. And I'm going to see if I can set those out. Firstly, I believe it's beneficial to have individuals of various talents, whether in the group, company, or social setting. It's what I describe as the variety argument why diversity matters. I think diversity makes us become more sensitive to traditions that we maybe aren't familiar with. And that, in turn, makes us better lawyers.

Different backgrounds and cultures approach conflict in different ways. And therefore, people with diverse backgrounds can provide different insights and new approaches to tackle legal problems and other moral dilemmas. And that makes us more creative. Productivity flourishes in culturally diverse settings. A mind expands when encountering different modes of thinking. Diversity provides innovation, which, in turn, makes us grow culturally and economically.

And finally, I believe diversity connects us. If we just look at the world's most cosmopolitan and integrated cities, these places have tangible benefits, from personal development to enriching communities and the economy as a whole. Diversity acts as a magnet, doesn't it? It attracts talent. And so in my mind, diversity can only be a good thing for the legal profession.

When you look at the kind of people coming through the court systems, and specifically for the area where I work in, which is asylum and immigration, these people are not going to be white or English. They don't need to claim asylum in England. They tend to or probably going to be from other third-world countries coming to the UK.

And so those experiences and being able to speak to them about their experiences or understanding their experiences are incredibly important in understanding their case and then being able to put it forward before the court or the tribunal in the best form that it can be. Diversity and inclusion is incredibly important because it affects every angle of the bar, whether or not it is people's perception of it, to the quality of advocates, to clients' confidence with the legal system. And so I believe, certainly, in my experience, that I think diversity and inclusion are incredibly important.

Despite the challenges, I think I would recommend a career at the bar for a number of reasons. I think there are very few professions where you get to be as creative, use your mind, help people, and challenge a system. You can do really good things.

And I'd had 30 years, with some negatives. But the vast majority of my time as a lawyer and, in particular, as a barrister has been positive. I just think it's an amazing career, and one that I would encourage people, particularly people of colour. Because I think it's important to have as much diversity as possible in this profession.